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Post by Steve on Nov 3, 2022 12:43:21 GMT
Vinny wants to remove the right Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland have to field their own national teams in a number of sports. That's oppressive. By holding a referendum and having the whole of the UK voting on amalgamating the states into one. Which would be oppressive on those minor nations because you would be imposing on them a position the majority in that nation do not support. |
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Post by Vinny on Nov 3, 2022 12:45:38 GMT
By holding a referendum and having the whole of the UK voting on amalgamating the states into one. How would that be any fairer than holding a referendum in the EU and asking 450 million europeans if they wanted to abolish Britian and amalgamating you into one Europe?
You are being silly now vinny.
Empires that try and impose identities tend not to last. Ask the romans , or the british...........
Simple, if a state vetoes, it vetoes. But if a state goes ahead and the others do, amalgamation occurs. |
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Post by thomas on Nov 3, 2022 12:46:33 GMT
you spent the whole of this thread comeing up with poor reasons why a nation cant name itself in sport under its native moniker. Whats more , you arent even a member of that nation.
I would say thats as oppresive as anything vinny is saying , and at the least arrogant in the extreme.
Oh do actually read what I post instead of imagining it I am . See my replies .
You , a non welshman , are arguing and putting up reason for the welsh not to call their team cymru because for some strange reason you wont divulge it upsets you?
Now as the thread develops , you are trying to run away from your deeply held position because you are being confronted with the silliness and arrogance of it?
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Post by thomas on Nov 3, 2022 12:48:17 GMT
How would that be any fairer than holding a referendum in the EU and asking 450 million europeans if they wanted to abolish Britian and amalgamating you into one Europe?
You are being silly now vinny.
Empires that try and impose identities tend not to last. Ask the romans , or the british...........
Simple, if a state vetoes, it vetoes. But if a state goes ahead and the others do, amalgamation occurs. how can an internal uk country veto what england wants under the disgracefull westmisnter anti democratic system ? Am i missing something?
You cant even honour political mandates in the celtic nations at present if it doesnt suit your elites interests?
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Post by thomas on Nov 3, 2022 12:50:24 GMT
By holding a referendum and having the whole of the UK voting on amalgamating the states into one. Which would be oppressive on those minor nations because you would be imposing on them a position the majority in that nation do not support. As i said imagine vinnys uproar if the EU had insisted 450 million europeans had a say on england leaving.?
I see that its not just anglo remianers who have difficulty in coming to terms with democratic norms
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Post by Vinny on Nov 3, 2022 12:52:59 GMT
So basically if Wales plus England want to amalgamate, they amalgamate, if Wales wants to amalgamate but England does not, they do not.
Each state has a veto over their own amalgamation.
They only amalgamate by democratic consent.
Fair ?
And, I would propose a referendum for the location of the capital to move from Westminster.
London doesn't need to be the political capital of the UK.
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Post by thomas on Nov 3, 2022 12:57:19 GMT
So basically if Wales plus England want to amalgamate, they amalgamate, You are discussing a fait accompli vinny?
Wales and England legally amalgamated in the 16 the century.
lol. How does this imgainery veto , which has never existed in three centuries of union , suddenly appear and work?
crack on then. While you are organising a referendum no one appears to want , and demanding vetos westmisnter wont give , we and the irish will carry on as we were.
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Post by Montegriffo on Nov 3, 2022 13:05:26 GMT
Vinny wants to remove the right Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland have to field their own national teams in a number of sports. That's oppressive. By holding a referendum and having the whole of the UK voting on amalgamating the states into one. The first ever International in football was England v Scotland in 1872. That's 150 years of tradition you want to throw away there. I doubt you'd get a majority to vote for that. |
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Post by Vinny on Nov 3, 2022 13:15:25 GMT
If people voted to throw that tradition away, yes I would.
I would create an opportunity to amalgamate all football leagues of the UK into one.
Imagine Welsh Scottish and English teams competing for the FA Cup, the Premier League...
I would hold a referendum to democratically amalgamate with locals having a democratic veto.
Wales wouldn't amalgamate with England if the Welsh don't want to or if the English didn't wish to.
Scotland wouldn't amalgamate unless they and the partners also agreed.
And regarding local democracy, aka devolution, every county council in the UK could get devolved powers over local taxation and spending above that which current devolved bodies have.
That's a system I would argue for.
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Post by thomas on Nov 3, 2022 13:17:36 GMT
By holding a referendum and having the whole of the UK voting on amalgamating the states into one. The first ever International in football was England v Scotland in 1872. That's 150 years of tradition you want to throw away there. I doubt you'd get a majority to vote for that. fully agree monte. Vinnys proposition is mere personal wishfull thinking and doesnt appear to stand up to any scrutiny.
Getting back to steve , and the discussion of this thread , it appears the welsh proposed changing their parliaments name as well ,and the majority supported it ,so i see no reason why , contrary to steves poor argument , the welsh fitba team cant do the same.
Senedd Cymru: Why has the National Assembly for Wales changed its name?
What is the legal basis for the name change?
The Wales Act 2017 conferred competence on the National Assembly for Wales to change its name. Section 9 of the Act requires a “super-majority” of two thirds of all AMs to agree in order to do so.
The then National Assembly had already voted for a name change in July 2016, with AMs unanimously approving a motion which said the Assembly: “should change its name to reflect its constitutional status as a national parliament.”
A public consultation followed in December 2016, which reported in June 2017. Sixty-one percent of nearly 3,000 responses agreed to a change of name, with nearly three quarters backing ‘Welsh Parliament’ as the best option. The Assembly’s Presiding Officer (Llywydd in Welsh) Elin Jones said she hoped this would help people, “more fully understand the powers of the Assembly and the role it plays in their lives.”
On 12 February 2019, the Presiding Officer introduced the Senedd and Elections (Wales) Bill on behalf of the Assembly Commission. The Bill contained provisions to lower the voting age for Assembly elections to 16, as well as to change the name of the Assembly simply to ‘Senedd’ (Welsh for parliament), which had been used informally for several years.
However, in October 2019 the then First Minister Carwyn Jones tabled an amendment to the Senedd and Elections (Wales) Bill to give it a bilingual name, “Senedd Cymru” and “Welsh Parliament.” Jones said that this was because not everyone understood the Welsh-only name.
In a vote on 9 October 2019 AMs agreed to a bilingual name, by a margin of 43 votes to 13.
Perhaps a bilingual wales/cymru name is the way forward to satisfy the sensibilities of people like steve ?
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Post by thomas on Nov 3, 2022 13:20:55 GMT
That's a system I would argue for. Vinny no one else wants it or agrees with you in any numbers. You appear a lone voice crying in the wilderness.
The english are very patriotic , as are the welsh , us scots and irish .
Any political group proposing some or many of the things you espouse in scotland in my lifetime have been nothing more than fringe pressure groups on the edge of society no one takes seriously.
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Post by Montegriffo on Nov 3, 2022 13:24:35 GMT
By holding a referendum and having the whole of the UK voting on amalgamating the states into one. The first ever International in football was England v Scotland in 1872. That's 150 years of tradition you want to throw away there. I doubt you'd get a majority to vote for that. As an aside, I bet nobody can guess (without looking it up) what the first ever international sporting match in 1844 was. |
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Post by thomas on Nov 3, 2022 13:27:50 GMT
The first ever International in football was England v Scotland in 1872. That's 150 years of tradition you want to throw away there. I doubt you'd get a majority to vote for that. As an aside, I bet nobody can guess (without looking it up) what the first ever international sporting match in 1844 was. thought it was rugby but just looked it up... |
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Post by Vinny on Nov 3, 2022 13:36:44 GMT
Vinny no one else wants it or agrees with you in any numbers.
Without holding a vote, you don't know. I used to hear the same thing about Brexit at one time, yet here we are. |
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Post by thomas on Nov 3, 2022 13:40:01 GMT
Vinny no one else wants it or agrees with you in any numbers.
Without holding a vote, you don't know. I used to hear the same thing about Brexit at one time, yet here we are. to hold a vote on the subject , you need to get a party into power in scotland ireland wales or england that advocates it in the respective countries.
As far as im aware , only ukip brexit party , BNP in scotland from memory have come close to some of the things you espoused and they barely managed 2 % of the vote on average , sometimes much less , and often losing deposits.
British nationalism and identity is decreasing , not increasing vinny , and the national identities of the constituent nations coming to the fore.
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