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Post by dappy on Aug 16, 2023 12:04:46 GMT
I think you might have been listening too much to the "impartial" Dan Wooten Orac.
Meanwhile in the real world, there is no realistic prospect of a sensible solution to this problem without the UK taking a fair share of those people coming to Europe to seek asylum who have a justifiable case for asylum. Keep pretending there is, solely for tabloid headlines and we will get nowhere. Accept the reality and work within that reality and we can find a much better solution.
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Post by Dan Dare on Aug 16, 2023 12:05:45 GMT
It seems to me there is little prospect of returning failed asylum seekers or would-be asylum seekers whose claims are deemed inadmissible to the EU so some other solution is needed.
There must be safe territories to which they can be despatched until such time as they give up and request to be sent home. Perhaps even some under British jurisdiction already. We probably need to be thinking in terms of a peak population of a quarter million or so before the word gets around that the UK has become one of the hardest places to subsist as an illegal migrant.
I understand that some refugee camps administered by the UNHCR accommodate over 100,000 so this is not an insurmountable problem logistically if the political will is there. Perhaps several could be established in a contiguous zone or in different locations with conditions varying from 'hard' to 'soft', the latter being reserved for those who have agreed to self-deport when conditions are suitable.
All it would take is a little imagination.
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Post by dappy on Aug 16, 2023 12:10:23 GMT
Red You are being fanciful. It is impossible in the real world to stop desperate people finding ways whether by boat or lorry or container. You are making the same mistake as the Government - unrealistic big gestures that would look good in papers but wont make a difference. Australia proved your notion wrong, Dappy. It is possible as it has been done. I'm happy to help genuine asylum seekers, however these boat people are not. Genuine asylum seekers will arrive by an approved method clutching their passport. "Genuine" asylum seekers from many countries where conflict is active have no approved method of arriving here and in the majority of cases have never owned a passport. |
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Post by Orac on Aug 16, 2023 12:15:50 GMT
Australia proved your notion wrong, Dappy. It is possible as it has been done. I'm happy to help genuine asylum seekers, however these boat people are not. Genuine asylum seekers will arrive by an approved method clutching their passport. "Genuine" asylum seekers from many countries where conflict is active have no approved method of arriving here and in the majority of cases have never owned a passport. The objective of the asylum system is to allow people to flee to safety, not to get them into the UK specifically |
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Post by Fairsociety on Aug 16, 2023 12:25:21 GMT
Australia proved your notion wrong, Dappy. It is possible as it has been done. I'm happy to help genuine asylum seekers, however these boat people are not. Genuine asylum seekers will arrive by an approved method clutching their passport. "Genuine" asylum seekers from many countries where conflict is active have no approved method of arriving here and in the majority of cases have never owned a passport. Those fleeing Afghan and Ukraine will be fully armed with all their ID, so we assume (no we know) those without any form of ID are not from any country engaged in wars, or fear for their lives or in danger of being killed .... Fact. |
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Post by dappy on Aug 16, 2023 12:26:22 GMT
You seem to be desperately moving the goalposts until you find an argument that sticks Orac - exactly as you were with Wooten yesterday. Seek fanciful solutions that look good on the front page of the tabloids if you wish - its what Johnson and Sunak do on most issues not just this. But if you want to achieve change you have to focus on reality and practical solutions - sometimes suboptimal to what you see as ideal but an improvement on the alternative. Its time for grown up government. Sadly the Tories at present have shown they are not a credible option in delivering that. While frankly not that excited by Labour, they are the only grown up option we are likely to have.
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Post by Dan Dare on Aug 16, 2023 12:28:05 GMT
To comfortably accommodate a population of a quarter million we would need an area about the size of Wolverhampton (around 70 km2). A cursory look around the British Isles turns up several islands of suitable size that could be requisitioned, which are close to the mainland and therefore easily provisioned, and to which access to and from could be strictly controlled. The isle of Bute, for example, in the Firth of Clyde would fill the bill.
PS I hadn't realised there were so many options for offshore warehousing of illegal aliens in the UK; there are at least twenty of suitable size and location, and most are very sparsely populated.
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Post by dappy on Aug 16, 2023 12:30:21 GMT
Blimey Fairsociety seems to think that the only country where currently populations are engaged in wars or in fear for their lives from the state are Ukraine and Afghanistan. Such ignorance is extraordinary and should be highlighted
Incidentally people living in west Ukraine are not in any serious danger and anyone coming to the UK from there almost certainly are in reality economic migrants.
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Post by Orac on Aug 16, 2023 12:30:21 GMT
You seem to be desperately moving the goalposts until you find an argument that sticks Orac - exactly as you were with Wooten yesterday. Seek fanciful solutions that look good on the front page of the tabloids if you wish - its what Johnson and Sunak do on most issues not just this. But if you want to achieve change you have to focus on reality and practical solutions - sometimes suboptimal to what you see as ideal but an improvement on the alternative. Its time for grown up government. Sadly the Tories at present have shown they are not a credible option in delivering that. While frankly not that excited by Labour, they are the only grown up option we are likely to have. Dappy, you have this a bit upside down. Allowing everyone in and enduring the resulting chaos is not 'a practical solution' - it's just what you prefer. The people insisting the flow is stopped are doing so for partially practical reasons. It is you that is being impractical |
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Post by Fairsociety on Aug 16, 2023 12:34:15 GMT
Blimey Fairsociety seems to think that the only country where currently populations are engaged in wars or in fear for their lives from the state are Ukraine and Afghanistan. Such ignorance is extraordinary and should be highlighted Incidentally people living in west Ukraine are not in any serious danger and anyone coming to the UK from there almost certainly are in reality economic migrants. Considering the bulk of the boat people are from Albania is all the proof you need, people holiday in Albania, it's a tourist destination, so what legitimate reason would we allow anyone fleeing Albania, who has to pass through at least two other EU borders be allowed asylum in the UK? |
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Post by dappy on Aug 16, 2023 12:43:51 GMT
You are out of date Fairsociety. Very few of today's boat people now come from Albania. I agree that with a few special case exceptions (eg sex workers trafficked here who have escaped but would be killed if returned home) very few Albanians would be entitled to asylum. One of the components of the sensible reforms needed to our system I outlined above is why our system grants asylum to many more Albanians than France and Germany's does. You get very few headlines in the tabloids by reviewing and adjusting our acceptance criteria to mirror France and Germany's so Patel and Braverman haven't bothered, but it would be a vital plank of the overall package to address the issue by any serious government.
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Post by andrewbrown on Aug 16, 2023 12:48:53 GMT
I'm happy to help genuine asylum seekers, however these boat people are not. All of them? Some of them? Most of them? What criteria are you using to reach your conclusion, as the government stats are not agreeing with you. |
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Post by Fairsociety on Aug 16, 2023 12:59:26 GMT
You are out of date Fairsociety. Very few of today's boat people now come from Albania. I agree that with a few special case exceptions (eg sex workers trafficked here who have escaped but would be killed if returned home) very few Albanians would be entitled to asylum. One of the components of the sensible reforms needed to our system I outlined above is why our system grants asylum to many more Albanians than France and Germany's does. You get very few headlines in the tabloids by reviewing and adjusting our acceptance criteria to mirror France and Germany's so Patel and Braverman haven't bothered, but it would be a vital plank of the overall package to address the issue by any serious government. Am I?
I don't think so..
How many Albanian migrants come to the UK?
There has been a rapid increase in the number of Albanian migrants crossing the English Channel:
In 2020, 50 arrived on small boats
In 2021, 800 made the crossing
In 2022, 12,301 arrived
That ^^ does not include any calculation so far for 2023, I would imagine it's already past 12,301 Albanians.
I mean is there any young males left in Albania?
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Post by dappy on Aug 16, 2023 13:06:08 GMT
As I say you need to keep up. The proportion of boat arrivals coming from Albania in 2023 is around 4%
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Post by jonksy on Aug 16, 2023 13:34:57 GMT
I'm happy to help genuine asylum seekers, however these boat people are not. All of them? Some of them? Most of them? What criteria are you using to reach your conclusion, as the government stats are not agreeing with you. The criteria of these arseholes entering the UK illegally. If they were fucking genuine they wouldn't be throwing their ID's into the channel and the ratio of women and children does not stack up. |
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