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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Nov 17, 2022 15:21:47 GMT
It isn't just culture that's changed, it's social structure. Invasions of Romans, Vikings and Normans, who were also Vikings, paled to insignificance to invasions that have happened over the comparatively recent past. One major difference was that the low local population and available land were considerably smaller and more easily accommodating. The coming down from the trees moment was around the 10th century. Where I live was a place which has huge historical significance to this transition. Kings prior to that were generally chief warriors, but then at the time I speak of the new king wanted to learn stuff and was tutored by the church, which at that time was the centre of academia. Even though he was king, he trusted the church to guide him honestly, since the trouble with being king was of course the hangers oners who were on the make, but the church defined our modern constitution. No longer would we behave like savages and onwards to enlightenment. This then became the trend, so to be royal you had to be of Christian values. Royalty set the tone and the courtiers followed. The creed was asceticism with no big thrills and extravagancy but exercising humility. Once they reached this point they would start to see how much they did not know and there was to learn. What is amazing is it may not ever have happened at all if it were not for a certain king to win a battle on a field where I live. We were feeling lucky and we were lucky. The difference now is we have tried our luck too many times and it has run out. |
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Post by Montegriffo on Nov 17, 2022 15:23:42 GMT
It's too complicated to discuss with drive-by one-line merchants. Suffice to say, there is very little DNA in this case for scientists to work with (e.g. there is no Y-DNA available) and what does exist is highly likely to have been contaminated given the manner these remains have been treated in the 120 years since they were found. We had extensive discussions on this matter in the old place. I would remind you that personal attacks are not allowed in the Mindzone. I regard ''drive by one line merchants'' as a personal attack and will not stand for a repetition of such language. If you can't debate in a civil manner then please restrict yourself to the rest of the board. |
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Post by colbops on Nov 17, 2022 21:04:45 GMT
Evidence who were black-skinned? And isn't a culture one of the defining characteristics of an ethnie? Usually, but that doesn't have to be the case The English are considered to be an ethnic group Get 100 people who consider themselves English in a room though and You'd probably have a consensus that - Race is not a defining factor
- You have to be born in England
- You have to speak English
Beyond that you'd struggle and you'd most certainly have no hope forming any sort of consensus on what English culture is let alone a threshold to pass the 'English Ethnicity Test' Anyway, you are in danger of taking your own thread off topic, while culture can be a factor in ethnicity, ethnicity has no bearing on culture. So about this culture theft thing. I'd refer you back to my previous post which you ran away from. ukpoliticsdebate.boards.net/post/18360/threadLets start small, maybe it was too much for you presented all in one go like that. Can culture be stolen? surely if our culture was stolen, that would be a good thing since it would mean more people are adopting it, causing us to have more in common with more 'others' Culture can be imposed for sure. When England was becoming a nation a culture was invented and imposed in order to create a common identity to bind the people of the fledging kingdom together. Has here been an imposition of culture since, nothing on that level. Is the English culture changing, of course it is, it is always evolving and changing. Has it been eroded or stolen, isn't that a false premise? |
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Post by Dan Dare on Nov 17, 2022 22:04:13 GMT
I don't believe that such matters can be resolved simply by assembling a random selection of people who consider themselves English. After all, David Lammy considers himself English. But: "Race is not a defining factor" I'm not aware of any multi-racial ethnic groups in the wider world, are you? Forget for the moment what trendy types in the west who don't really understand what ethnicity entails, do you believe that say Ibo, Han or Tamils would welcome westerners into their ethnic group just because they want to be part of it? "You have to be born in England" Not really. There are probably tens of thousands of the ethnically English in the diaspora. "You have to speak English" Yes, sharing a common language is a characteristic of an ethnie. But speaking English is not a reliable indication you are ethnically English. In fact there are probably an order of magnitude more English speakers than there are actual English. And btw, I never run away from anything, so is that your No.1 query: Can culture be stolen? If yes, then of course it can. The OP describes the process.
I meant to add that by 'stolen', that doesn't mean that your culture has been stolen by others for their own use, rather that you have been deprived of it even though you may be completely unaware that has happened. As indeed is almost everyone who has passed through the social conditioning process that is laughably termed the educational system in the past 50 or 60 years. They simply don't know what has been stolen from them.
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Post by oracle75 on Nov 17, 2022 23:13:02 GMT
I don't believe that such matters can be resolved simply by assembling a random selection of people who consider themselves English. After all, David Lammy considers himself English. But: "Race is not a defining factor" I'm not aware of any multi-racial ethnic groups in the wider world, are you? Forget for the moment what trendy types in the west who don't really understand what ethnicity entails, do you believe that say Ibo, Han or Tamils would welcome westerners into their ethnic group just because they want to be part of it? "You have to be born in England" Not really. There are probably tens of thousands of the ethnically English in the diaspora. "You have to speak English" Yes, sharing a common language is a characteristic of an ethnie. But speaking English is not a reliable indication you are ethnically English. In fact there are probably an order of magnitude more English speakers than there are actual English. And btw, I never run away from anything, so is that your No.1 query: Can culture be stolen? If yes, then of course it can. The OP describes the process.
I meant to add that by 'stolen', that doesn't mean that your culture has been stolen by others for their own use, rather that you have been deprived of it even though you may be completely unaware that has happened. As indeed is almost everyone who has passed through the social conditioning process that is laughably termed the educational system in the past 50 or 60 years. They simply don't know what has been stolen from them.
You cannot say something is stolen if you never had it. What has happened is that the cultural identity of the UK has come to include and represent the time I which it is created. Which is what culture is. Eventually you have to put your doublet and hose away and become part of today's culture. |
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Post by colbops on Nov 17, 2022 23:40:42 GMT
I don't believe that such matters can be resolved simply by assembling a random selection of people who consider themselves English. After all, David Lammy considers himself English. But: "Race is not a defining factor" I'm not aware of any multi-racial ethnic groups in the wider world, are you? Forget for the moment what trendy types in the west who don't really understand what ethnicity entails, do you believe that say Ibo, Han or Tamils would welcome westerners into their ethnic group just because they want to be part of it? "You have to be born in England" Not really. There are probably tens of thousands of the ethnically English in the diaspora. "You have to speak English" Yes, sharing a common language is a characteristic of an ethnie. But speaking English is not a reliable indication you are ethnically English. In fact there are probably an order of magnitude more English speakers than there are actual English. And btw, I never run away from anything, so is that your No.1 query: Can culture be stolen? If yes, then of course it can. The OP describes the process.
I meant to add that by 'stolen', that doesn't mean that your culture has been stolen by others for their own use, rather that you have been deprived of it even though you may be completely unaware that has happened. As indeed is almost everyone who has passed through the social conditioning process that is laughably termed the educational system in the past 50 or 60 years. They simply don't know what has been stolen from them.
Chances are if you went out and randomly lifted 100 people of the street they'd all be white. David Lammy is a bit of an outlier. People of other races generally do not identify as English, even if they are very passionate and wedded to being British. Perversely virtually all minorities think that you have to be white to be British, but 90% of those who identify as White and English don't consider race to matter when it comes to being English. As to rounding up a group and getting a consensus opinion, it's the only way of 'resolving the issue' albeit it is probably too small a sample as an Ethnic grouping is just a grouping of people who identify with each other on the basis of some shared attributes that seperate and set them apart from 'others' As for your acceptance or rejection of the attributes I commented on, you are leaning on what you think, and what you think alone isn't good enough as it matters what the group thinks. If you round up everyone that considers themselves English, and they that group don't feel they do identify with each other and don't feel like they share some common attributes that differentiate them from all others to make it so, then there is a problem with the concept of English Ethnicity. I rather suspect there is and you would likely find that in practice, there is no such thing. And back to culture, it wasn't my number 1 question it was just the first, you can refer to the others here ukpoliticsdebate.boards.net/post/18360/thread The OP doesn't describe the process of stealing someone's culture, that very notion is absurd. The linked article uses the term but it doesn't actually describe such a thing either. It is possible to attempt to impose a culture on others, it may even stick, but that is down to the people it is being imposed on, and how strongly attached to their culture, their rites, rituals, traditions, practices, norms etc. The English culture hasn't changed via being tolerant and allowing people to come here and continue to live by the cultural practices of the societies and groups they left behind, and indeed there is no reason why it should cause our natives to alter their culture. If our culture has changed over the past 50 years its because we, our parents, and our grandparents allowed it, they chose not to hold on to things that didn't really matter to them, stick with things that didn't make sense to them anymore, and embraced change. There are plenty of examples of invasions where the invaders ended up integrating and adopting the culture of the invaded, so much so we have a term for it 'going native' Nothing has been stolen, it just doesn't work like that. The article in the OP is a crock. Cultural Marxism for goodness sakes. Why would our leaders and our ruling class want to dismantle the very things that keep them in control and risk being overthrown in a commie uprising. Its daft in the extreme. How about Q2 what do do about it... Would an apartheid type solution actually work for culture. Would you be able to find enough people that shared your idea of what English culture is, segregate them, and then stop them being influenced by outside influence? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2022 4:19:46 GMT
It's happening again. It happens on every forum this topic is broached. It has become hopeless to discuss it. You will be shouted down.
I will only add that Britain is possibly the only place in the world and possibly in history, where native people and ethnic associates worldwide are constantly informed that they have no case, no axe to grind and are nasty pieces of work for having mentioned the subject. This does not happen to other ethnicities, mostly because they tend not to attack one another from within on the subject. It only happens to those of us who are English in particular and white in general.
I no longer get involved in these spats as they get nowhere and they get nowhere because culture and ethnicity, if it pertains to the native white people of the UK, is attacked and its protestors silenced one way and another. Already Dan has been accused of violating a rule simply by calling people (not by name) one line wonders. That is a very thin excuse for trying to get rid of him, but get rid of him apparently they must. Thou shalt not be English. Scots? Fine, Welsh? Fine but you will be ridiculed simply for being Welsh. Irish? Not terribly well tolerated. But say you are English and a host of nay sayers will leap upon you and deny your actual reality. They will attempt to deny your actual biological reality (conflating it with nationality) and they will stridently tell you that not only do you not exist but that your existence is shameful, racist and outdated. In other words it would be nice if you either went silent forever or just died.
I am well accustomed to this and know, from my long experience of living with others of various cultural and ethnic realities, that if you attempt to support your people as English you will be singled out and silenced. If you refuse to remain silent or change your tune, then you will be reviled. You will be told that your thinking is defective, that you are not aware of the passing of time since the dark ages and your actual biological reality that can be presented as evidence with a DNA test result will be scoffed at or ignored. You do not exist. Period.
It is so extreme now that most of have us given up bothering to discuss it. That doesn't mean we have given up our biological reality. It just means that our enemies will reveal themselves in due course and we should take note and leave before we are expelled on trumped up charges.
You may break any forum rules you like, provided you are on side. That also goes for the various wars and conflicts that go on worldwide. Get with the program or get out. Or else.
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Post by Orac on Nov 18, 2022 9:21:18 GMT
It's happening again. It happens on every forum this topic is broached. It has become hopeless to discuss it. You will be shouted down. I will only add that Britain is possibly the only place in the world and possibly in history, where native people and ethnic associates worldwide are constantly informed that they have no case, no axe to grind and are nasty pieces of work for having mentioned the subject. It's this pattern and its total predictability that first alerted to me to the fact that there is a peculiar issue here. Discussions of ethnicity only wander into the strained arena of the philosophical dilemma of identity when certain, particular ethnicities are discussed or raised. It wasn't that long ago the English were still allowed to talk about the fact of their existence without an argument - it was in living memory |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2022 9:38:34 GMT
Yes. I am totally unfamiliar with this relatively recent new silencing. Never in my life have I ever tried to tell anyone they have no culture, no identity or that their ancestors are irrelevant.
Charlize Theron has tried her luck with this by telling people Afrikaans (her own cultural heritage) is going extinct and is a "not a useful language". I saw in the press today that Afrikaners here have slapped her down for it. Good for them. What she says is rubbish.
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Post by Dan Dare on Nov 18, 2022 9:45:08 GMT
The sensation I'm getting is not one of being shouted down, but rather one of being squeaked at. The great benefit of having discussions like this one is that it exposes in the most cruel fashion the totally threadbare nature of the 'arguments' marshalled by the other side.
Their case for singling out the English in the first instance and other Europeans in the second for what the Nazis euphemistically termed 'Special Handling' aka 'race replacement' is so shockingly racist that it's a great surprise that none of them have been had on charges of incitement to racial hatred.
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Post by oracle75 on Nov 18, 2022 9:58:37 GMT
The sensation I'm getting is not one of being shouted down, but rather one of being squeaked at. The great benefit of having discussions like this one is that it exposes in the most cruel fashion the totally threadbare nature of the 'arguments' marshalled by the other side. Their case for singling out the English in the first instance and other Europeans in the second for what the Nazis euphemistically termed 'Special Handling' aka 'race replacement' is so shockingly racist that it's a great surprise that none of them have been had on charges of incitement to racial hatred. I would be interested to know how you would define "English culture". Which BTW was largely seeded by William the Conquerer over a thousand years ago. He pretty much erased what was in England before 1066. |
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Post by Equivocal on Nov 18, 2022 10:01:58 GMT
It's this pattern and its total predictability that first alerted to me to the fact that there is a peculiar issue here. Discussions of ethnicity only wander into the straining arena of the philosophical dilemma of identity when certain, particular ethnicities are discussed or raised. It wasn't that long ago the English were still allowed to talk about the fact of their existence without an argument - it was in living memory I think, despite not constituting a 'legal' ethnic group, most of us agree we, the English, do indeed form an ethnic group. The bone of contention tends to be whether ethnic English is a biological group or a cultural group.
Those who support the biological foundation tend, at least as I've understood it, to be against the idea of multiculturism (I'm not a supporter); I see this as a contradiction.
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Post by Dan Dare on Nov 18, 2022 10:32:00 GMT
"The bone of contention tends to be whether ethnic English is a biological group or a cultural group."
The normative definition of an ethnie allows for both.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2022 11:47:07 GMT
DNA simply wipes out whether or not anyone is who and what others say they are not. Science is a great leveller.
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Post by Montegriffo on Nov 18, 2022 12:28:56 GMT
The sensation I'm getting is not one of being shouted down, but rather one of being squeaked at. The great benefit of having discussions like this one is that it exposes in the most cruel fashion the totally threadbare nature of the 'arguments' marshalled by the other side. Their case for singling out the English in the first instance and other Europeans in the second for what the Nazis euphemistically termed 'Special Handling' aka 'race replacement' is so shockingly racist that it's a great surprise that none of them have been had on charges of incitement to racial hatred. I would be interested to know how you would define "English culture". Which BTW was largely seeded by William the Conquerer over a thousand years ago. He pretty much erased what was in England before 1066. I think, like several others, you have been misled about the subject of this thread. The title suggests it is about English culture but any attempts to determine what that is or where it comes from are mostly ignored. In reality it is just another thread on the evils of immigration where only white people are considered truly British. British culture is something we are allowed to spread around the world along with our religion and rule of law but it is not allowed to be influenced by any outside sources that result from that global empire. If you try to point out that the major recent changes in our culture are a result of creeping Americanisation you are accused of being off topic. The few half hearted attempts to actually define English culture read as if they should be accompanied by the soundtrack of a Hovis ad and hark back to some perfect time before the 1960's as if culture can be preserved in aspic and move forward without ever changing. |
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