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Post by zanygame on Aug 4, 2023 17:53:10 GMT
Yes, of course. It's called natural variation. An average year is actually a rare event, they are mostly drier than average, or wetter than average and both of these will be attributed to climate change by you cultists. So much for being open minded. As I said anything I bring will be dismissed as "you cultists" What you could have done if you weren't a denier is go to the site I linked and pick some other dates. See the trend and then comment. That trend is for dry springs and monsoon style summers. Causing flash flooding that our towns and cities are not designed to deal with.  Storm drain Birmingham  Storm drain Los Angeles. |
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Post by sandypine on Aug 4, 2023 17:54:21 GMT
Well here is England and Wales up to 2019 aye. I saw that earlier. Where is the comparable data for scotland please?
i would have to read the link in depth , and see where you got your data from.
you havent given us any comparable date for scotland , you have only made an erronous claim about the north versus south , which i have already dissected earlier. The dividing line is west versus east , and the british islands as a whole have a similar climate as i have already said apart from a rough line from the wash to the isle of whight . South and east of this line has historically a continental climate , which skews englands overall data , as western scotland skews scotland overall data.
i said that ealrier on when i talked of micro cliamtes , rather than looking at uk , or scotland versus england Just to be clear I am not making any claims as regards UK weather other than 'normal' is strange way to talk about weather which is affected by a multitude of factors. It is others that are claiming our climate is changing and flash floods are more common and droughts and rainfall events are all becoming extreme. The England and Wales chart shows that on average nothing so far has changed and it is averages that are oft quoted as definitive. The weather in the UK chops and changes all over the place. I live in a small area whereby ten years ago the main road was blocked 2 miles south of us by snow and to the north and the east the hills were covered, we had no snow on the ground at all despite the whole country being effectively white. Weather is a local phenomenon whereas Climate is a much more clearly defined thing within the parameters of averages. Our weather as usual is all over the place, our climate is pretty consistent. I lived in South Hampshire for 20 years and twice had my car covered in Sahara sand and once my conservatory was broken by golf ball size hailstones. These are rare events but part of local weather. They are only indicative of something else if you average them out. Apologies cannot find the Scottish chart at the moment but it is there somewhere. |
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Post by sandypine on Aug 4, 2023 20:23:31 GMT
Yes, of course. It's called natural variation. An average year is actually a rare event, they are mostly drier than average, or wetter than average and both of these will be attributed to climate change by you cultists. So much for being open minded. As I said anything I bring will be dismissed as "you cultists" What you could have done if you weren't a denier is go to the site I linked and pick some other dates. See the trend and then comment. That trend is for dry springs and monsoon style summers. Causing flash flooding that our towns and cities are not designed to deal with. Storm drain Birmingham Storm drain Los Angeles. I ask again, where is the data that supports the view that that is trend. |
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Post by thomas on Aug 5, 2023 12:45:07 GMT
aye. I saw that earlier. Where is the comparable data for scotland please?
i would have to read the link in depth , and see where you got your data from.
you havent given us any comparable date for scotland , you have only made an erronous claim about the north versus south , which i have already dissected earlier. The dividing line is west versus east , and the british islands as a whole have a similar climate as i have already said apart from a rough line from the wash to the isle of whight . South and east of this line has historically a continental climate , which skews englands overall data , as western scotland skews scotland overall data.
i said that ealrier on when i talked of micro cliamtes , rather than looking at uk , or scotland versus england Just to be clear I am not making any claims as regards UK weather other than 'normal' clearly you are. You said this earlier.....
...and all i said to you was you were making what appeared to me to be a generalisation , based on an uninformed stereotype.
Who says we are dealing with flash flood primarily in England? Why would we be? England makes up only 40 % of the land of these islands, why would we ignore the majority area when talking about the climate? I keep telling you over and over sandy , its not countries as a whole but western parts of each of the countries where the wetter parts of these islands are.
As the thread moves on sandy , you are in danger of talking bullshit in your attempts to baffle with meaningless words.
I dont agree with zany regarding flash flooding or necessarily his support for green taxation and policies ,and im sort of onboard with you regarding this being natural , but lets not fight wacky conspiracies and cherry picked data on the climate with yet more bullshit , and try and at least stick to what we know and can prove.
you are repeating yourself. We have already went over some of the reasons why flash flooding could be more common. Human overpopualtion in areas like the central belt of scotland , or greater london , building on ancient floodplains , lack of proper drainage , concreting over green spaces and much else. Flash flooding could very well be happening more , in a combination of the natural variation in rainfall meaning we are potentially going through a wetter period in certain areas , coupled with some of the stuff i have already mentioned giving the perfect breeding ground for flash flooding that could possibly have nothing to do with man made climate change .
You cant just say i dont belive in man made climate change so flash flooding isnt happening book closed.
What happened in the 1930`s? Why are you picking out this time frame , and what evidence do you have that we are seeing fewer flash floods ? over to you?
we know that isnt true , and not only that you are contradicting yourself when you earlier claimed the uk is getting wetter .
The climate changes all the time in all countires. We know this from history , where even england and wales( not sure why you keep saying england and wales are different to the rest of us or the world in general) went through periods of climate changing naturally such as the medieval warm period , the maunder minimum and so one. So what are you talking about?
Ive just proven earlier that the metoffice has said wales climate has gotten wetter by ten per cent over the last 60 years. You have said this is within margin of error over a period from the 18th century to the 21 st. So your own graph , and the met office are saying the climate is changing in at least one of the countries you claim it isnt , but the argument is wether this is natural or man made?
well i asked you earlier to back up your claims scotland climate is becoming wetter by giving comparable graphs as you did over a three hundred year period with england and wales. So as yet , we can dismiss your claims about scotland , and take it with a pinch of salt.
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Post by sandypine on Aug 5, 2023 18:24:23 GMT
Just to be clear I am not making any claims as regards UK weather other than 'normal' clearly you are. You said this earlier.....
...and all i said to you was you were making what appeared to me to be a generalisation , based on an uninformed stereotype.
Who says we are dealing with flash flood primarily in England? Why would we be? England makes up only 40 % of the land of these islands, why would we ignore the majority area when talking about the climate? I keep telling you over and over sandy , its not countries as a whole but western parts of each of the countries where the wetter parts of these islands are.
As the thread moves on sandy , you are in danger of talking bullshit in your attempts to baffle with meaningless words.
I dont agree with zany regarding flash flooding or necessarily his support for green taxation and policies ,and im sort of onboard with you regarding this being natural , but lets not fight wacky conspiracies and cherry picked data on the climate with yet more bullshit , and try and at least stick to what we know and can prove.
you are repeating yourself. We have already went over some of the reasons why flash flooding could be more common. Human overpopualtion in areas like the central belt of scotland , or greater london , building on ancient floodplains , lack of proper drainage , concreting over green spaces and much else. Flash flooding could very well be happening more , in a combination of the natural variation in rainfall meaning we are potentially going through a wetter period in certain areas , coupled with some of the stuff i have already mentioned giving the perfect breeding ground for flash flooding that could possibly have nothing to do with man made climate change .
You cant just say i dont belive in man made climate change so flash flooding isnt happening book closed.
What happened in the 1930`s? Why are you picking out this time frame , and what evidence do you have that we are seeing fewer flash floods ? over to you?
we know that isnt true , and not only that you are contradicting yourself when you earlier claimed the uk is getting wetter .
The climate changes all the time in all countires. We know this from history , where even england and wales( not sure why you keep saying england and wales are different to the rest of us or the world in general) went through periods of climate changing naturally such as the medieval warm period , the maunder minimum and so one. So what are you talking about?
Ive just proven earlier that the metoffice has said wales climate has gotten wetter by ten per cent over the last 60 years. You have said this is within margin of error over a period from the 18th century to the 21 st. So your own graph , and the met office are saying the climate is changing in at least one of the countries you claim it isnt , but the argument is wether this is natural or man made?
well i asked you earlier to back up your claims scotland climate is becoming wetter by giving comparable graphs as you did over a three hundred year period with england and wales. So as yet , we can dismiss your claims about scotland , and take it with a pinch of salt.
By all means use as much salt as you like. I am not claiming anything as regards the British climate. I am providing information that is the public domain that does not support the narrative that we are becoming overall wetter and warmer with much more flash floods. The information in the public domain does not back up that claim as Scotland skews the rainfall. If England and Wales are seeing no change in rainfall levels then increased rainfall cannot be the source for the flash floods. The flash floods themselves are not increasing as the chronology indicates. blog.historicenvironment.scot/2016/02/scotlands-changing-climate-part-one/All I did was refer to the published data and asked for further evidence about the claims being made as regards wetter, hotter. Specific heavy rainfall locally is not a new phenomenon as Lynton and Lynmouth and several other locations can illustrate. |
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Post by sandypine on Aug 6, 2023 14:15:59 GMT
So much for being open minded. As I said anything I bring will be dismissed as "you cultists" What you could have done if you weren't a denier is go to the site I linked and pick some other dates. See the trend and then comment. That trend is for dry springs and monsoon style summers. Causing flash flooding that our towns and cities are not designed to deal with. Storm drain Birmingham Storm drain Los Angeles. I ask again, where is the data that supports the view that that is trend. The current data is here and July seems not too bad by comparison.  |
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Post by zanygame on Aug 6, 2023 15:16:47 GMT
I ask again, where is the data that supports the view that that is trend. The current data is here and July seems not too bad by comparison. Again I already answered. I gave you links looking at changing rainfall per month over the years to demonstrate why just looking at annual rainfall does not show those changes. We have just had record braking torrential rainfall. It is also well known that the density of rainfall depends on the amount of moisture in the air and that this is increasing. |
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Post by sandypine on Aug 6, 2023 19:53:42 GMT
The current data is here and July seems not too bad by comparison. Again I already answered. I gave you links looking at changing rainfall per month over the years to demonstrate why just looking at annual rainfall does not show those changes. We have just had record braking torrential rainfall. It is also well known that the density of rainfall depends on the amount of moisture in the air and that this is increasing. Well we know the moisture in the atmosphere is greater due to the Tongan event. Let us again be clear. You are saying the averages are of no consequence if they show a stable rainfall but if they show an increase they are global warming. In the local areas monthly records are being broken throughout history. Yeovilton 2002, Heathrow 2014, Southampton 1914, Cumbria 2016, Durham 1903, Eastbourne 2000, Bradford 2008, Oxford 1872, Camborne 1978. Rainfall, and specifically record rainfall requires many factors to occur and it is not just AGW, if at all. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2023 6:00:16 GMT
Again I already answered. I gave you links looking at changing rainfall per month over the years to demonstrate why just looking at annual rainfall does not show those changes. We have just had record braking torrential rainfall. It is also well known that the density of rainfall depends on the amount of moisture in the air and that this is increasing. Well we know the moisture in the atmosphere is greater due to the Tongan event. Let us again be clear. You are saying the averages are of no consequence if they show a stable rainfall but if they show an increase they are global warming. In the local areas monthly records are being broken throughout history. Yeovilton 2002, Heathrow 2014, Southampton 1914, Cumbria 2016, Durham 1903, Eastbourne 2000, Bradford 2008, Oxford 1872, Camborne 1978. Rainfall, and specifically record rainfall requires many factors to occur and it is not just AGW, if at all. The major issue is that it has all become political and even religious, where facts are dismissed if it doesn't serve the control agenda. |
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Post by zanygame on Aug 7, 2023 6:16:28 GMT
Again I already answered. I gave you links looking at changing rainfall per month over the years to demonstrate why just looking at annual rainfall does not show those changes. We have just had record braking torrential rainfall. It is also well known that the density of rainfall depends on the amount of moisture in the air and that this is increasing. Well we know the moisture in the atmosphere is greater due to the Tongan event. Let us again be clear. You are saying the averages are of no consequence if they show a stable rainfall but if they show an increase they are global warming. In the local areas monthly records are being broken throughout history. Yeovilton 2002, Heathrow 2014, Southampton 1914, Cumbria 2016, Durham 1903, Eastbourne 2000, Bradford 2008, Oxford 1872, Camborne 1978. Rainfall, and specifically record rainfall requires many factors to occur and it is not just AGW, if at all. Yes its always possible to hide AGW among normal weather. But scientists are saying the weather patterns we are currently seeing would be all but impossible without AGW. Your position is very neat. You claim that you believe we are having some effect but that we don't know how much. That means you can move your position at any time. While still claiming we need do nothing about AGW because we don't know how much is due to us. As for records being broken, its the frequency and number of records we need to watch. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2023 6:23:14 GMT
Well we know the moisture in the atmosphere is greater due to the Tongan event. Let us again be clear. You are saying the averages are of no consequence if they show a stable rainfall but if they show an increase they are global warming. In the local areas monthly records are being broken throughout history. Yeovilton 2002, Heathrow 2014, Southampton 1914, Cumbria 2016, Durham 1903, Eastbourne 2000, Bradford 2008, Oxford 1872, Camborne 1978. Rainfall, and specifically record rainfall requires many factors to occur and it is not just AGW, if at all. Yes its always possible to hide AGW among normal weather. But scientists are saying the weather patterns we are currently seeing would be all but impossible without AGW. Actually, they're saying the jetstream has dipped by a few hundred miles. When the jetstream raises we get hotter summers, which again is blamed on AGW.  |
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Post by zanygame on Aug 7, 2023 6:30:53 GMT
Yes its always possible to hide AGW among normal weather. But scientists are saying the weather patterns we are currently seeing would be all but impossible without AGW. Actually, they're saying the jetstream has dipped by a few hundred miles. When the jetstream raises we get hotter summers, which again is blamed on AGW. Actually you have to know what causes the jet stream to shift. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2023 6:44:14 GMT
Actually, they're saying the jetstream has dipped by a few hundred miles. When the jetstream raises we get hotter summers, which again is blamed on AGW. Actually you have to know what causes the jet stream to shift. The slightly older mantra was that the jetstream will move north as a consequence of global warming. This year the jetsteam has dipped south, which somewhat debunks that theory. Any variation (they are always shifting) is now blamed on AGW, which can only result in even more doubt. |
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Post by thomas on Aug 7, 2023 6:50:11 GMT
clearly you are. You said this earlier.....
...and all i said to you was you were making what appeared to me to be a generalisation , based on an uninformed stereotype.
Who says we are dealing with flash flood primarily in England? Why would we be? England makes up only 40 % of the land of these islands, why would we ignore the majority area when talking about the climate? I keep telling you over and over sandy , its not countries as a whole but western parts of each of the countries where the wetter parts of these islands are.
As the thread moves on sandy , you are in danger of talking bullshit in your attempts to baffle with meaningless words.
I dont agree with zany regarding flash flooding or necessarily his support for green taxation and policies ,and im sort of onboard with you regarding this being natural , but lets not fight wacky conspiracies and cherry picked data on the climate with yet more bullshit , and try and at least stick to what we know and can prove.
you are repeating yourself. We have already went over some of the reasons why flash flooding could be more common. Human overpopualtion in areas like the central belt of scotland , or greater london , building on ancient floodplains , lack of proper drainage , concreting over green spaces and much else. Flash flooding could very well be happening more , in a combination of the natural variation in rainfall meaning we are potentially going through a wetter period in certain areas , coupled with some of the stuff i have already mentioned giving the perfect breeding ground for flash flooding that could possibly have nothing to do with man made climate change .
You cant just say i dont belive in man made climate change so flash flooding isnt happening book closed.
What happened in the 1930`s? Why are you picking out this time frame , and what evidence do you have that we are seeing fewer flash floods ? over to you?
we know that isnt true , and not only that you are contradicting yourself when you earlier claimed the uk is getting wetter .
The climate changes all the time in all countires. We know this from history , where even england and wales( not sure why you keep saying england and wales are different to the rest of us or the world in general) went through periods of climate changing naturally such as the medieval warm period , the maunder minimum and so one. So what are you talking about?
Ive just proven earlier that the metoffice has said wales climate has gotten wetter by ten per cent over the last 60 years. You have said this is within margin of error over a period from the 18th century to the 21 st. So your own graph , and the met office are saying the climate is changing in at least one of the countries you claim it isnt , but the argument is wether this is natural or man made?
well i asked you earlier to back up your claims scotland climate is becoming wetter by giving comparable graphs as you did over a three hundred year period with england and wales. So as yet , we can dismiss your claims about scotland , and take it with a pinch of salt.
By all means use as much salt as you like. I am not claiming anything as regards the British climate. I am providing information that is the public domain that does not support the narrative that we are becoming overall wetter and warmer with much more flash floods. The information in the public domain does not back up that claim as Scotland skews the rainfall. If England and Wales are seeing no change in rainfall levels then increased rainfall cannot be the source for the flash floods. The flash floods themselves are not increasing as the chronology indicates. blog.historicenvironment.scot/2016/02/scotlands-changing-climate-part-one/All I did was refer to the published data and asked for further evidence about the claims being made as regards wetter, hotter. Specific heavy rainfall locally is not a new phenomenon as Lynton and Lynmouth and several other locations can illustrate. sandy , you arent really making sense. We are singing from the same hymn sheet on some issue but not others.
You demonstrably claimed earlier in this thread to me the uk climate isnt changing except when you add scotland in , which skews the data. I said you are therefore making an uninformed generalisation about scotland , as the same principle applies within our nation regarding one region skewing the overall data. That could be said about any country.
Western , not northern , scotland skews the data for scotland , and i went on to point out that these islands is full of regional variations and micro climates, but the general rule of thumb for precipitation is west (not north) is wettest , east (not south) is driest.
No you didnt. You provided a graph showing england and wales (not the uk , not scotland or the british isles) climate over a three hundred year period with its variation in that time. There was no data from what i can see regarding flash flooding.
whats the link supposed to prove? I asked you for comparable data to the three hundred year data for england and wales, and you post some link about scotland over the last century , talking about last decembers record breaking rainfall. So in short , no comparison , with cherry picked data. The very thing you accuse climate alarmists of , and as such , we can dismiss your unproven claims.
I appreciate you feel stonrgly about the climate argument , and i dont necessarily agree with zany , but you are simply waffling for waffling sake. If you cant give us the comparable data for scotland , over the same time period to england and wales , to show me what you are talking about , then im afraid we can only dismiss your empty claims as nonsesne and move on.
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Post by thomas on Aug 7, 2023 6:58:25 GMT
Well we know the moisture in the atmosphere is greater due to the Tongan event. Let us again be clear. You are saying the averages are of no consequence if they show a stable rainfall but if they show an increase they are global warming. In the local areas monthly records are being broken throughout history. Yeovilton 2002, Heathrow 2014, Southampton 1914, Cumbria 2016, Durham 1903, Eastbourne 2000, Bradford 2008, Oxford 1872, Camborne 1978. Rainfall, and specifically record rainfall requires many factors to occur and it is not just AGW, if at all. The major issue is that it has all become political and even religious, where facts are dismissed if it doesn't serve the control agenda. i would agree b4. Its an interesting subject , until politicians get involved and fuck the argument up. It then becomes as you say ,politically dogmatic , where neither side wants to budge or accept points , with arguments carried with religous fervour.
It getting like the covid argument all over again .
Why cant we all accept the weather does what it does , man may have a small amount of influence with his behaviour , but taxing us to death ,and lowering our standards of life isnt the way forward.
When you see the emissions of countires like china compared to the uk , its unbelievable. The pollution in the seas such as plastic and much more comes from five rivers in asia and africa. The whole argument is futile in terms of what scotland and england can do.
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