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Post by wapentake on Nov 30, 2023 9:58:34 GMT
But if the Sun is destined to become a red giant in 5 billion years or so, it does not mean that life on earth is destined to survive here for that long. Because the sun is getting gradually hotter it will destroy life here much sooner. It will probably be becoming uncomfortably hot within half a billion years and it is reckoned that by about 1 billion years from now, 2 billion years at most, the heat will trigger a runaway greenhouse effect and we will become another hell hole like Venus. But as things get too hot here, other bodies much further out will be warming up too, and if there survives an intelligent species on this planet capable of travelling elsewhere, Mars, and later the moons of Jupiter might become a possible oases for a time. But eventually life throughout our solar system will be impossible anymore unless in artificial underground areas on rocky bodies. It seems that much of the logic applied today is based upon the engineering limitations that exist today. Who knows, life in space could become a normality at some stage with interactions between separate communities in their own life bubbles, as the Human species searches for a new home.And end up with Palestine in space
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Post by see2 on Nov 30, 2023 10:14:09 GMT
It seems that much of the logic applied today is based upon the engineering limitations that exist today. Who knows, life in space could become a normality at some stage with interactions between separate communities in their own life bubbles, as the Human species searches for a new home.And end up with Palestine in space I guess that might be possible as well, what a sad, but perhaps a fitting end, wiped out by war in space
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Post by wapentake on Nov 30, 2023 10:28:40 GMT
And end up with Palestine in space I guess that might be possible as well, what a sad, but perhaps a fitting end, wiped out by war in space Tbh see2 I look around the world and what is happening and refer to a thread on here that suggested we might be living in some sort of simulation,were I the person in control I’d hit the reset button.
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Post by distant on Nov 30, 2023 10:59:20 GMT
Some interesting Suggestions in this thread about who should be the first to set foot on Mars.
However, readers of the Daily Heil and Torygraph et al are worried about how much wokery they might find on Mars, and if the Martians are planning to join the woke EU. I'm not sure that the suggested people are fully equipped to deal with such serious issues.
Esther McVey has recently been appointed as a Minister without portfolio by the oleaginous Prime Miniature, Sunak. Her mission is to seek out and destroy all traces of wokery that she might find. I would therefore suggest that she should be the first Earthling to set foot on Mars with a view to destroying all wokery that she might find on the red planet. While doing this she could also keep a look out for any boxes of Trump votes that may have been dumped there.
Tories are calling her the Minister of Common Sense. Oh the irony.
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Post by dodgydave on Nov 30, 2023 13:44:24 GMT
That is a very important thing for equality, fairness and the progress of women. A man first walked on the moon. Valentina Tereshkova could have done that, if she had been given the opportunity. Surely equality and fairness would mean the best person for the job would be first to set foot on Mars?
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Post by see2 on Nov 30, 2023 13:46:59 GMT
Some interesting Suggestions in this thread about who should be the first to set foot on Mars. However, readers of the Daily Heil and Torygraph et al are worried about how much wokery they might find on Mars, and if the Martians are planning to join the woke EU. I'm not sure that the suggested people are fully equipped to deal with such serious issues. Esther McVey has recently been appointed as a Minister without portfolio by the oleaginous Prime Miniature, Sunak. Her mission is to seek out and destroy all traces of wokery that she might find. I would therefore suggest that she should be the first Earthling to set foot on Mars with a view to destroying all wokery that she might find on the red planet. While doing this she could also keep a look out for any boxes of Trump votes that may have been dumped there. Tories are calling her the Minister of Common Sense. Oh the irony. Esther McVey all alone on Mars without a return ticket, now that's a quite interesting thought.
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Post by Veronika on Nov 30, 2023 20:13:49 GMT
Dear Forumers,
I might volunteer to go to Mars, as long as my girlfriend went as well. And a bit like Dr. Kris Kelvin in the 2002 film of Solaris, I may stay for good with her on a faraway planet where it was just the two of us. But I suppose that a lot of people would probably have to stay on Mars, to develop a permanent colony.
Veronika Oleksychenko
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Post by Dan Dare on Nov 30, 2023 21:37:17 GMT
It would certainly need more than just you and girlfriend to make a proper go of it.
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Post by johnofgwent on Dec 1, 2023 0:03:00 GMT
See2, I think this is such a distant prospect it is meaningless. The sun (according to theory) is scheduled to inflate massively, but on a time scale comparable to the current age of the universe. This isn't worth planning for because humans will (almost certainly) not exist anyway at this point. The sun generates its heat by a process of nuclear fusion in it's core where in a series of nuclear collisions involving atomic nuclei and electrons, hydrogen is gradually transformed into helium, a process that converts part of the original mass into massive amounts of energy. But as the helium content in the core increases the sun gradually burns hotter. This is a very slow and gradual process, but it is definitely chucking out more heat than it was half a billion years ago. It is currently about 5 billion years old which is a little over a third of the age of the universe thought to be a bit under 14 billion years old. It has been slowly heating up ever since it was born and will continue to do so. Over many tens or hundreds of millions of years this becomes very noticeable but is far too minute to be noticeable on human time scales so is not the phenomenon responsible for climate changes in the last few thousand years. Though more temporary fluctuations in output related to changes in it's magnetic field might well have been a factor, as well as any wobble in the earth's axis of spin or changes in the composition of its atmosphere and suchlike. Anyway, I digress. The sun will continue converting hydrogen into helium at its core, getting progressively hotter over geological timescales as it does so. Until in about another 5 billion years or so the core becomes choked up with helium with little hydrogen left to burn resulting in a temporary diminution in the rate of nuclear fusion with less outward pressure to hold off the inward pull of gravity. At this point the core and the layers immediately about it begin to contract under the weight of gravity, which in turn heats it up further. Layers outside the core then become hot enough to begin fusing hydrogen into helium there, whilst the helium in the core becomes hot enough to start fusing into carbon. This creates more powerful outwards pressure sufficient to almost overwhelm gravity and the outer layers of the sun get blown out into a vastly larger area. The surface area becomes cooler, hence red instead of yellow. Which is why this type of star is known as a red giant. But it is still several thousand degrees Celsius at the surface. When the sun becomes a red giant in about 5 billion years it will grow so large that it will entirely engulf the inner two planets Mercury and Venus. Scientists are uncertain whether it will grow large enough to engulf earth too. If it does our planet will also be destroyed. If it doesnt our planet will be so close to this vast star that it will be melted into a ball of molten rock or metal. Life here would be impossible. Eventually the remnant core will use up all the helium turning it into carbon, whilst in a shell around it the hydrogen will have been converted into helium and nuclear fusion winds down again. By this time the outer layers have been blown off entirely to form a ring of gas around the shrinking core. This is known as a planetary nebula because it resembles a planetary disc in telescopes. As the spent fuel near the core shrinks it of course gets hotter again, the bigger the star the hotter it gets. In stars much larger than our sun the carbon gets so hot that it fuses into heavier and heavier atomic elements, like oxygen and silicon and eventually in the end iron. The bigger the star the faster this happens. When iron forms a core, further fusion becomes impossible and a massive core collapse takes place along with all the surrounding layers. These other collapsing layers rapidly grow so hot that fusion of different elements into others begins throughout the star causing a massive supernova that blows the star apart. Such is the energy involved in such a short period of time that a single supernova can outshine an entire galaxy full of a hundred million stars. The colossal energy involved is so great that it fuses iron into heavier elements still, even though this uses energy rather than creating it. All the elements we know on earth today that are heavier than iron - gold for example - were created in the explosions of massive stars, the dust spreading throughout the galaxy and becoming part of vast dust and gas clouds in space, the collapse of which creates new stars. Our sun formed on one such collapsing gas and dust cloud, itself already seeded with dust grains of heavy elements created in massive earlier stars and their explosions. The cores of such massive stars are not blown apart with them but continue to rapidly collapse under the weight of their own mass. So powerful is the gravity that all electrons and protons are squeezed together to form neutrons with no atomic space left between them. These are neutron stars consisting of nothing but densely packed neutrons which can contain more mass than our sun squeezed down into something only a few miles across. A teaspoon full of this material would weigh millions of tons. And as spinning objects spin much more rapidly as they contract, something so small with so much mass can spin many thousands of times a second. These weird stars are fiercely magnetic and send out a continuous blast of intense radio waves from their poles. If they are aligned in such a way that this blast of radio waves reaches us with every spin, we detect them in the form of regular powerful bursts of radio waves or pulses. This is why when first detected they were known as pulsars. When a core is crushed into a neutron star the powerful nuclear forces involved are sufficient to prevent any further collapse, but only if the mass does not exceed a certain point known as the Chandrasekhar limit. If the mass is greater than this even a neutron star cannot survive and it collapses into a black hole. But I have been seriously digressing again. The mass of a star like our sun is not great enough for it to heat up enough due to gravitational collapse to burn much carbon into anything heavier. Nor is it great enough for the core to collapse into a neutron star. Instead it will collapse into a compact object perhaps the size of a planet to become a white dwarf, slowly cooling over billions more years. The earth, if it has survived at all will now be a cold and barren rock in space, all life upon it long gone. But if the Sun is destined to become a red giant in 5 billion years or so, it does not mean that life on earth is destined to survive here for that long. Because the sun is getting gradually hotter it will destroy life here much sooner. It will probably be becoming uncomfortably hot within half a billion years and it is reckoned that by about 1 billion years from now, 2 billion years at most, the heat will trigger a runaway greenhouse effect and we will become another hell hole like Venus. But as things get too hot here, other bodies much further out will be warming up too, and if there survives an intelligent species on this planet capable of travelling elsewhere, Mars, and later the moons of Jupiter might become a possible oases for a time. But eventually life throughout our solar system will be impossible anymore unless in artificial underground areas on rocky bodies. This is, in essence, the subject matter of a most depressing lecture i sat through in october 1976 as part of my undergrad physical chemistry course. The bottom line is, to nick the words of Mr Burdon and his band, ‘we gotta get out of this place’. If Homo Sapiens is not to go the way if the dinosaurs, we have to get the hell off of this rock. Not soon, but eventually. And perhaps it is worthwhile remembering the only item we have sent out of our solar system in search of other sentient life is powered by a radioactive element utterly infamous for its chemical toxicity to life as we know it Way to go, guys
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Post by Orac on Dec 1, 2023 9:18:04 GMT
I think the prospect is so distant it doesn't itself demand any focus at all. Either our exit from the solar system is (more or less) impossible, or following our nose will lead us out in a time frame of billions of years. If it gets to the '1 million years left' mark, we can start rubbing our beards and drinking coffee over the matter. Of course, there will be no such ting as humans then, so all of this talk of late nights with coffee is entirely fantasy.
I suspect the voyager missions and all those handy diagrams were a mistake born of an age of optimism. The optimism here is gargantuan, cosmic in scale.
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Post by wapentake on Dec 1, 2023 9:40:06 GMT
I think the prospect is so distant it doesn't itself demand any focus at all. Either our exit from the solar system is (more or less) impossible, or following our nose will lead us out in a time frame of billions of years. If it gets to the '1 million years left' mark, we can start rubbing our beards and drinking coffee over the matter. Of course, there will be no such ting as humans then, so all of this talk of late nights with coffee is entirely fantasy. I suspect the voyager missions and all those handy diagrams were a mistake born of an age of optimism. The optimism here is gargantuan, cosmic in scale. The speed which this all developed was massive,my old man joined the RAF and it relied on biplanes by the time he left they were introducing jets. As a kid growing up it was all about breaking the sound barrier the blue streak rocket project as we tried to keep up. From Sputnik and Yuri Gagarin to landing on the moon happened in a relative flash then it all really came to a halt regards manned missions going further. There is no imperative to drive it and until there is it will be very slow.
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Post by Orac on Dec 1, 2023 9:58:54 GMT
I think the prospect is so distant it doesn't itself demand any focus at all. Either our exit from the solar system is (more or less) impossible, or following our nose will lead us out in a time frame of billions of years. If it gets to the '1 million years left' mark, we can start rubbing our beards and drinking coffee over the matter. Of course, there will be no such ting as humans then, so all of this talk of late nights with coffee is entirely fantasy. I suspect the voyager missions and all those handy diagrams were a mistake born of an age of optimism. The optimism here is gargantuan, cosmic in scale. From Sputnik and Yuri Gagarin to landing on the moon happened in a relative flash then it all really came to a halt regards manned missions going further. There is no imperative to drive it and until there is it will be very slow. I mean - examine it rationally. Lets take our nearest neighour Mars (apart from the moon, which is more or less a part of the Earth anyway) . What benefits might we reasonably predict to get from a manned escapade to Mars? Until the technology rises in power by 2 orders of magnitude, it would be pointless to try. You would just be killing people for a photo op. In many scifi adventure stories we have the notion of interstellar mining - cargo ships taking mineral ore back to the solar system. The thing is the solar system has so much rock it is completely unfathomable that anyone, under any circumstances would need to add more from the outside. What exacvtly would be building that required so much material that we depleted the solar system?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2023 11:36:24 GMT
I understand the Martians are now demanding Starlink Internet and a Tesla Roadster in orbit.
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Post by Orac on Dec 1, 2023 11:40:14 GMT
Here is my analogy.
Sending a manned mission to mars is equivalent to proposing to cross the Atlantic during mid-winter in a canoe, if you knew absolutely all that was on the other side of the Atlantic was a desert with a typical daytime temp of -150C
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Post by see2 on Dec 2, 2023 14:26:32 GMT
I think the prospect is so distant it doesn't itself demand any focus at all. Either our exit from the solar system is (more or less) impossible, or following our nose will lead us out in a time frame of billions of years. If it gets to the '1 million years left' mark, we can start rubbing our beards and drinking coffee over the matter. Of course, there will be no such ting as humans then, so all of this talk of late nights with coffee is entirely fantasy. I suspect the voyager missions and all those handy diagrams were a mistake born of an age of optimism. The optimism here is gargantuan, cosmic in scale. Now that the possible need to move away from the planet is recognised, then steps towards that eventuality will and should take place, as they are being taken right now. Learning to grow food in space is an obvious marker, learning to do experiments in space is another. Learning to take physical care of those in space is another.
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