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Post by sheepy on Oct 29, 2022 19:24:28 GMT
So, you accept, that a majority voted to leave the EU and accept that and from now on will back them even if it wasn't what you personally wanted as a result? Because that is democracy, you had your say and were voted down by a majority on the day. That way democracy thrives. Of course, I do. But bear in mind that acceptance of the result does not mean forfeiture of the right to voice one's opposing opinion -- or indeed, the right to attempt to reverse an electoral decision as long as it is done by way of a lawful, democratic process. It is not undemocratic to wish to reverse Brexit. And neither is it undemocratic to find lawful, democratic ways (like demonstrations, like use of media) to reverse Brexit. Thats why I said oh but wait, because I knew every political excuse made up by the EU, UK politicians and their media would follow. |
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Post by buccaneer on Oct 29, 2022 21:24:44 GMT
'Project fear' was on the right track. Ha. I do not remember them telling us a global pandemic was around the corner - do you think that pandemic happened because of Brexit? I don't remember project fear telling us Putin would invade Ukraine. Our project hasn't even started, it's in its infancy. It will take time especially with a global pandemic and a European war on our doorstep, thanks in no small part to EU expansionism. Give global Britain the same amount of time it was a member of the EU before writing it off as defunct by that time you may have a point. And I've seen nowhere whatsoever that demonstrates Briton's want to adopt the Euro currency and be a part of Schengen along with all the EU's other pitfalls. You're in la la land if you believe that will ever happen. Dream on. Covid affected all countries but isn't it interesting how of developed nations only the UK is struggling to recover its exports post Covid obr.uk/box/the-latest-evidence-on-the-impact-of-brexit-on-uk-trade/  Even arch Brexiter Lord Frost is admitting Brexit is a 5% problem for the economy (the 2016 predicted figure leavers dismissed as project fear) but says it's supposedly worth it for the freedoms - well when you have to be a slave to the debt market those 'freedoms' are illusory too. So we may not be able to go back in but we can certainly make sure the guilty are held accountable. The surprising weakness of UK exports as per the graph above is in relation to non-EU exports where they are currently 11% below their long term trend. This however can not be attributed to Brexit.  In recent months the UK's exports to the EU itself are holding up well. |
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Post by sandypine on Oct 29, 2022 22:08:15 GMT
So, you accept, that a majority voted to leave the EU and accept that and from now on will back them even if it wasn't what you personally wanted as a result? Because that is democracy, you had your say and were voted down by a majority on the day. That way democracy thrives. Of course, I do. And of course, I don't. Bear in mind that acceptance of the result does not mean forfeiture of the right to voice one's opposing opinion -- or indeed, the right to attempt to reverse an electoral decision as long as it is done by way of a lawful, democratic process. It is not undemocratic to wish to reverse Brexit. And neither is it undemocratic to find lawful, democratic ways (like demonstrations, like use of media) to reverse Brexit. There is a slight problem with that in that once a democratic decision is taken then it is incumbent on all to work within that framework. It is clear that many Remainers in positions of influence/power are actively working to stop Brexit. That is most certainly not the way democracy works. When a road forks and a decision is made to take route A then people can moan and groan and argue against travelling route A but one expects them to be actually driving down route A with the whole shebang and not still trying to drive down route B. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2022 22:29:26 GMT
Of course, I do. And of course, I don't. Bear in mind that acceptance of the result does not mean forfeiture of the right to voice one's opposing opinion -- or indeed, the right to attempt to reverse an electoral decision as long as it is done by way of a lawful, democratic process. It is not undemocratic to wish to reverse Brexit. And neither is it undemocratic to find lawful, democratic ways (like demonstrations, like use of media) to reverse Brexit. There is a slight problem with that in that once a democratic decision is taken then it is incumbent on all to work within that framework. It is clear that many Remainers in positions of influence/power are actively working to stop Brexit. That is most certainly not the way democracy works. When a road forks and a decision is made to take route A then people can moan and groan and argue against travelling route A but one expects them to be actually driving down route A with the whole shebang and not still trying to drive down route B. Then what's the point of opposition parties? Yap, yap, yap and then sit down? What are they -- official yappers? |
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Post by sandypine on Oct 29, 2022 22:52:57 GMT
There is a slight problem with that in that once a democratic decision is taken then it is incumbent on all to work within that framework. It is clear that many Remainers in positions of influence/power are actively working to stop Brexit. That is most certainly not the way democracy works. When a road forks and a decision is made to take route A then people can moan and groan and argue against travelling route A but one expects them to be actually driving down route A with the whole shebang and not still trying to drive down route B. Then what's the point of opposition parties? Yap, yap, yap and then sit down? What are they -- official yappers? Opposition in parliamnet is normally to proposed law etc but once propositions become law then all follow it but they can still argue against it but not break it. The point about Brexit is we had a vote in terms of what to do, and all parties had said the EU was not working in the best intersts of the UK, and the public was asked to accept or reject the EU along the lines of the Tories' deal. The public said reject so that is the road we travel for better or worse and all should work at travelling along that road although they can argue to change as much as they like. If you are in employment and you are asked to deliver opinion on how to build a component and are overruled by numbers then you build the component in the way you disagree with and moan and groan as much as you like but you do not build it your way, you follow the democratic outcome. |
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Post by Steve on Oct 30, 2022 0:27:12 GMT
Covid affected all countries but isn't it interesting how of developed nations only the UK is struggling to recover its exports post Covid obr.uk/box/the-latest-evidence-on-the-impact-of-brexit-on-uk-trade/ Even arch Brexiter Lord Frost is admitting Brexit is a 5% problem for the economy (the 2016 predicted figure leavers dismissed as project fear) but says it's supposedly worth it for the freedoms - well when you have to be a slave to the debt market those 'freedoms' are illusory too. So we may not be able to go back in but we can certainly make sure the guilty are held accountable. The surprising weakness of UK exports as per the graph above is in relation to non-EU exports where they are currently 11% below their long term trend. This however can not be attributed to Brexit. In recent months the UK's exports to the EU itself are holding up well. The problem is despite a seriously lowered currency our exports to the world are not doing well since Brexit. |
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Post by buccaneer on Oct 30, 2022 1:59:09 GMT
The surprising weakness of UK exports as per the graph above is in relation to non-EU exports where they are currently 11% below their long term trend. This however can not be attributed to Brexit. In recent months the UK's exports to the EU itself are holding up well. The problem is despite a seriously lowered currency our exports to the world are not doing well since Brexit. Correlation does not imply causation. Brexit despite a lower value currency has no effect on how the UK trades with non-EU countries. As usual, remnants see an issue with the economy and falsely blame it on Brexit. |
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Post by zanygame on Oct 30, 2022 7:11:52 GMT
 What a very strange chart. It compares UK export to EU industrial output. It uses UK export volume, rather than value. Almost like they were trying to hide the reality. What's the source of this intriguing comparison. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2022 8:20:49 GMT
Then what's the point of opposition parties? Yap, yap, yap and then sit down? What are they -- official yappers? Opposition in parliamnet is normally to proposed law etc but once propositions become law then all follow it but they can still argue against it but not break it. The point about Brexit is we had a vote in terms of what to do, and all parties had said the EU was not working in the best intersts of the UK, and the public was asked to accept or reject the EU along the lines of the Tories' deal. The public said reject so that is the road we travel for better or worse and all should work at travelling along that road although they can argue to change as much as they like. If you are in employment and you are asked to deliver opinion on how to build a component and are overruled by numbers then you build the component in the way you disagree with and moan and groan as much as you like but you do not build it your way, you follow the democratic outcome.The primary role of the opposition is to oppose the government. That's why they are called the opposition. Here's what I said. Tell me who is not following what: "It is not undemocratic to wish to reverse Brexit. And neither is it undemocratic to find lawful, democratic ways (like demonstrations, like use of media) to reverse Brexit. " Wishing to rejoin the EU and participating in a lawfully organised street march in favour of rejoining is neither illegal nor undemocratic. Undemocratic is when you stop the street march. |
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Post by Toreador on Oct 30, 2022 8:25:13 GMT
Opposition in parliamnet is normally to proposed law etc but once propositions become law then all follow it but they can still argue against it but not break it. The point about Brexit is we had a vote in terms of what to do, and all parties had said the EU was not working in the best intersts of the UK, and the public was asked to accept or reject the EU along the lines of the Tories' deal. The public said reject so that is the road we travel for better or worse and all should work at travelling along that road although they can argue to change as much as they like. If you are in employment and you are asked to deliver opinion on how to build a component and are overruled by numbers then you build the component in the way you disagree with and moan and groan as much as you like but you do not build it your way, you follow the democratic outcome. That's why they are called the opposition. Here's what I said. Tell me who is not following what: "It is not undemocratic to wish to reverse Brexit. And neither is it undemocratic to find lawful, democratic ways (like demonstrations, like use of media) to reverse Brexit. " Wishing to rejoin the EU and participating in a lawfully organised street march if favour of rejoining is neither illegal nor undemocratic. Undemocratic is when you stop the street march. No it isn't, it's their job to debate issues, why else would they sometimes support government measures? The term "opposition" should be dropped. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2022 8:43:37 GMT
The primary role of the opposition is to oppose the government. That's why they are called the opposition. Here's what I said. Tell me who is not following what: "It is not undemocratic to wish to reverse Brexit. And neither is it undemocratic to find lawful, democratic ways (like demonstrations, like use of media) to reverse Brexit. " Wishing to rejoin the EU and participating in a lawfully organised street march if favour of rejoining is neither illegal nor undemocratic. Undemocratic is when you stop the street march. No it isn't, it's their job to debate issues, why else would they sometimes support government measures? The term "opposition" should be dropped. So, the opposition debate issues -- and then vote with the government? Then why aim for a substantial parliamentary majority when you know that the opposition will vote with you, anyway? It seems that you want to reinvent the wheel but, in any case, with what would you replace the term "opposition"? |
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Post by thomas on Oct 30, 2022 8:51:45 GMT
No it isn't, it's their job to debate issues, why else would they sometimes support government measures? The term "opposition" should be dropped. So, the opposition debate issues -- and then vote with the government? Then why aim for a substantial parliamentary majority when you know that the opposition will vote with you, anyway? It seems that you want to reinvent the wheel but, in any case, with what would you replace the term "opposition"? Well is there is a massive lead for the uk rejoining as hinted , what im struggling to understand is why the labour party and keir starmer carry on with this nonsensical rubbish of making brexit work?
I know we are talking about starmer and his poor attempts at having some guile in politics , but surely most politicians have a rough idea of the public mood. Bearing that in mind , surely labour should be championing rejoin if its such a vote winner?
Maybe rejoin isnt as popular as some hint ,and as i keep saying , labour not as clever as they make out. Whats more likely to happen under a future labour government is rejoin by the back door. Labour dont like the plebs having a say in case they get the wrong answer , and if so , then all hell will break loose .
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Post by buccaneer on Oct 30, 2022 9:01:33 GMT
What a very strange chart. It compares UK export to EU industrial output. It uses UK export volume, rather than value. Almost like they were trying to hide the reality. What's the source of this intriguing comparison. steve's graph used export volume rather than value. This source is in the bottom left hand corner of the image. |
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Post by zanygame on Oct 30, 2022 9:28:26 GMT
What a very strange chart. It compares UK export to EU industrial output. It uses UK export volume, rather than value. Almost like they were trying to hide the reality. What's the source of this intriguing comparison. steve's graph used export volume rather than value. This source is in the bottom left hand corner of the image. The source name is not a link. I wanted to see the actual author, what was he making notes on. And whether said chart was cherry picked. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2022 10:32:27 GMT
So, the opposition debate issues -- and then vote with the government? Then why aim for a substantial parliamentary majority when you know that the opposition will vote with you, anyway? It seems that you want to reinvent the wheel but, in any case, with what would you replace the term "opposition"? Well is there is a massive lead for the uk rejoining as hinted , what im struggling to understand is why the labour party and keir starmer carry on with this nonsensical rubbish of making brexit work?
I know we are talking about starmer and his poor attempts at having some guile in politics , but surely most politicians have a rough idea of the public mood. Bearing that in mind , surely labour should be championing rejoin if its such a vote winner?
Maybe rejoin isnt as popular as some hint ,and as i keep saying , labour not as clever as they make out. Whats more likely to happen under a future labour government is rejoin by the back door. Labour dont like the plebs having a say in case they get the wrong answer , and if so , then all hell will break loose .
One poll says Yes, there is a massive lead for the UK rejoining. BUT polls are polls. They can be spot on; they can be way off. They are a legitimate guide and indicator, but you cannot rely on them as your sole basis when making a final decision as they are subject to mood and current events. Jo Swinson comes to mind. This is just one poll so maybe, realistically, rejoining is not that popular. However, trend does show that more people would vote to rejoin the EU and that more people believe that it was wrong to vote to leave the EU. It is obvious to me that Keith Starmer is anti-EU just like Corbyn. The only difference between them is that Keith Starmer has better presentation. He has more product on his hair than Corbyn. |
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