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Post by zanygame on Jul 11, 2023 11:33:52 GMT
And if France closes its borders? Come back when they do. I asked what happens IF. Is English your first language? |
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Post by zanygame on Jul 11, 2023 11:35:42 GMT
So if I speed to escape a gun man I'm still breaking the law? I don't think you'll find the law is that blunt. You would be speeding if the gun man was in another country . Try to keep up . Its not a literal analogy, you have to be able to imagine. |
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Post by Orac on Jul 11, 2023 11:38:51 GMT
Once again you wish to throw insults at people. I don't agree. Whatever. I don't see how you can disagree on the moral side. Someone travelling from France to the UK is unambiguously not doing so because they are unsafe in France. Consequently, the substantial claim they are making - ie 'I need to do this for safety' - is fraudulent. They are also criminals. The only motive i can ascribe to someone supporting such actions is some interest or other in these people being in the UK rather than France - a motive that has nothing at all to do with these people's safety. Such a motive would make such a person dishonest unless they declared it. |
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Post by dappy on Jul 11, 2023 11:55:52 GMT
There are many reasons in the real world why a small percentage of those forced to flee their homes and seek asylum in Europe choose to seek that asylum in the UK. i have no interest in throwing insults at these people. If you wish to, that is your right.
It seems we have (finally) established and agreed upon the law. I have asked you on numerous occasions how you would wish to see the law changed. you have ducked the question each time. If you would rather throw insults than discuss solutions, you can do that of course, but doesn't feel like a very productive solution.
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Post by Orac on Jul 11, 2023 12:04:33 GMT
i have no interest in throwing insults at these people. If you wish to, that is your right. It's not a gratuitous insult, these people are literally frauds and criminals. There are of course many reasons people want to be in the UK. However, what i have highlighted and what you have avoided dealing with head on, is the motive for wanting people in safe countries to be fraudulently moved into the UK. It seems we have (finally) established and agreed upon the law. I don't think we ever substantially disagreed on the law. The law does not give a person to hop from safe country to safe country regardless of consent and you seem to have accepted that. |
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Post by dappy on Jul 11, 2023 12:11:17 GMT
It seems Orac, having finally accepted the reality of the law, now refuses to engage in a conversation of how he would wish to change it.
Presumably then, he is happy for the law to stay as it is.
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Post by Orac on Jul 11, 2023 12:23:36 GMT
It seems Orac, having finally accepted the reality of the law This piece of dishonesty is called 'making a straw-man' Notice also that dappy has not at all touched on the issue of his motives for wanting people moved into the UK under a fraudulent pretext. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2023 12:47:29 GMT
How many countries does the convention stipulate that an asylum seeker is allowed to cross before they must claim asylum then. It doesn't specify a number and doesn't have to. Rather, there is simply no obligation to accept people from safe countries. This means that, after a person reaches a safe country, there is no longer any obligation to allow them to further move from that country to any other. i.e the number is 1 unless someone volunteers to accept them You have just stated that an asylum seeker does not have to claim asylum in a safe country and that they can move through a safe country without claiming asylum. No country has to accept asylum seekers but we signed up to the refugee convention placing on ourselves the obligation to process asylum seekers and offer them sanctuary. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2023 12:50:06 GMT
No country has to accept asylum seekers This should be framed. |
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Post by dappy on Jul 11, 2023 12:54:45 GMT
Still no mention of how Orac would like the law changed.....
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Post by Orac on Jul 11, 2023 12:56:30 GMT
You have just stated that an asylum seeker does not have to claim asylum in a safe country I never claimed that anyone is obliged to claim asylum. I have been saying the opposite repeatedly. and that they can move through a safe country without claiming asylum. The use of word 'through' here is a bit vague. They are free to move to another country if the destinations is willing to accept them. If they enter a second safe country without that consent, they are committing a crime. |
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Post by andrewbrown on Jul 11, 2023 13:04:46 GMT
France takes more asylum seekers than we do. I guess that makes France less dangerous. So why are they fleeing from France if its so good? Most actually apply for asylum in France, but then you knew that. It is however reasonable that some may wish to travel to the UK too, particularly those with family connections or those who speak English. |
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Post by andrewbrown on Jul 11, 2023 13:06:04 GMT
If they enter a second safe country without that consent, they are committing a crime. Which law are you referring to? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2023 13:13:59 GMT
No country has to accept asylum seekers This should be framed. "No country has to accept asylum seekers but we signed up to the refugee convention placing on ourselves the obligation to process asylum seekers and offer them sanctuary". If you are going to quote someone's words you should quote the whole thing to specify the context in which it was said. It is extremely poor form and childish to pick out one part part and present it as the whole thing. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2023 13:19:52 GMT
You have just stated that an asylum seeker does not have to claim asylum in a safe country I never claimed that anyone is obliged to claim asylum. I have been saying the opposite repeatedly. That is not the point I was making as well you know.and that they can move through a safe country without claiming asylum. The use of word 'through' here is a bit vague. They are free to move to another country if the destinations is willing to accept them. If they enter a second safe country without that consent, they are committing a crime. Through means "moving in one side and out of the other side" Not difficult really.
You cannot claim asylum in a country until you are in that country or a designated processing centre. They do not need permission first.
Not according to the refugee convention that we helped write and are signatories of. |
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