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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jun 24, 2023 13:37:48 GMT
but the costs of setting up that machine, staffing that factory, acquiring those materials, exporting that product and the amount you get ripped off at every stage make it impossible to defeat cheap Chinese imports at every level. Agreed, the only way we can compete on manufacture with China is to lower our standard of living and standards of safety to theirs. That or develop automation to another level. Ask why our standard of living is above those in China even though the Chinese work harder. Look around Britain and see how much we still utilise from an age of the "dark Satanic mills". We worked harder in Victorian times and got paid less than today. I mean if you just vanished all the Victorian houses in Manchester the majority of the people would be living in tents. Can we go on forever restoring old clapped out cars from the last days of our industrial empire and call them works of art by some rich kid TV presenter? Will the other guys over in Asia keep getting amused and buy the tee-shirt, or will they see Britain as a relic of the past, and do it all themselves so we have nothing to sell them?
I suggest in the coming recession where people have a few savings and no job to take the gamble and set themselves up. After all there is this general economic trend where if you look at all the new and successful businesses of the current day, they often start in the middle of a recession where it is tough, but their rivals are closing down. Once the upturn comes they cash in their chips and are ready to take on mega orders. Following the heard does not often help the bottom line.
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Post by bancroft on Jun 24, 2023 16:31:12 GMT
The successful ones I have come across are formerly offshoots producing a small part of a service provided by a company that either went bust or was taken over. In other otherwise niche products and they picked up the capital for a pittance.
We will never beat labour costs of say China in the near future so mass manufacturing is a dream unless we are going to use tariffs to ensure the home market is protected and I can't see that happening any time soon.
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jun 24, 2023 17:00:20 GMT
The successful ones I have come across are formerly offshoots producing a small part of a service provided by a company that either went bust or was taken over. In other otherwise niche products and they picked up the capital for a pittance. We will never beat labour costs of say China in the near future so mass manufacturing is a dream unless we are going to use tariffs to ensure the home market is protected and I can't see that happening any time soon. You did not watch the video I posted earlier so you skated past a very important thing which was going on in that factory which agues against your conclusion above in the second paragraph. Using tariffs is like going to a off licence and pointing a gun at them. You start acting like that and any remaining good will is gone. Right now China is being friendly and trying to be helpful towards the UK.
As for cottage industry manufacture, you don't need to rely on contacts with another firm to sell your stuff. You would be better selling to a niche market, e.g. something for a sport say which is not so common. The best products are the ones you know about really well, as in a product you use yourself. You can't easily guess what sort of cricket bat you need if you don't play cricket.
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Post by bancroft on Jun 24, 2023 17:29:30 GMT
Yes you need to know your markets, it really is common sense and you need to know the competition and what they are trading too.
The problem is you need ideas, then maybe capital to put it into reality.
There is no magic formula and I bet most will fail versus any that succeed.
I was reading Andrew Neil today about Brexit and our leaders not making the most of it yet he mentioned we paid too much for a settlement with the EU.......news to me I was not aware we had paid a thing or has this happened on the quiet?
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jun 24, 2023 18:43:15 GMT
Yes you need to know your markets, it really is common sense and you need to know the competition and what they are trading too. The problem is you need ideas, then maybe capital to put it into reality. There is no magic formula and I bet most will fail versus any that succeed. I was reading Andrew Neil today about Brexit and our leaders not making the most of it yet he mentioned we paid too much for a settlement with the EU.......news to me I was not aware we had paid a thing or has this happened on the quiet? The problem is that our corporate industry and "the way it is done" may have worked 50 years ago but in a competitive environment it is failing and these huge firms are being taken over by Chinese capital and management. You might like to search for a PCB factory in the UK and hear what the manager has to say about their operation. You'll see a different attitude. The only way our manufacturing will recover is via this very cottage industry idea. The government should back the idea by making it easy to do because it works like gene pool. Out of all the random "amateur" approaches as they would be referred to by the incumbents, one or two ways will be superior. Let them compete and these small firms will grow fast. China did it this way.
These firms don't want flashy designer offices. Look at the place that guy is operating from. It's just basic make-do accommodation because it is cheap and functional. We used to have a lot of this by using old industrial buildings, but then the developers knock it all down, make a development a million bucks and no one can afford to start up there so it becomes a desert. London was better when it had a lot of war damaged buildings which could be rented for pittance, out of which came a fashion industry which itself was a cottage industry and made it across the world, with the names in that are big now. Also another very bad influence here is our education system. If you want to learn how to manufacture something you aught to go over and live in Shenzhen for a year. You would learn more than any stupid college with lecturers who have never made a thing. They teach outdated methods or worse even, methods which are just wrong. |
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Post by besoeker3 on Jun 24, 2023 18:52:24 GMT
A sa matter of interest have you engaged in a cottage industry in a rural area? I don't talk about my business online. I do live in a rural area though. Thanks for your rather constructive input............................. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jun 24, 2023 18:53:51 GMT
I don't talk about my business online. I do live in a rural area though. Thanks for your rather constructive input............................. I live in a hostile country. |
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Post by zanygame on Jun 25, 2023 10:02:55 GMT
Yes you need to know your markets, it really is common sense and you need to know the competition and what they are trading too. The problem is you need ideas, then maybe capital to put it into reality. There is no magic formula and I bet most will fail versus any that succeed. One of the biggest issues I have seen with the many business plans that have been bought to me by would be entrepreneurs is the lack at looking at the market. Competition, pricing and even desirability of the product are not considered. A self cleaning toothbrush might seem desirable, but how many people would pay £12 for one. The other thing is protection. If you want investment you need to demonstrate that you can protect your product. No investor will put money into an invention so you can prove its popularity only to have the Chinese make it cheaper once it reaches scale. |
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Post by besoeker3 on Jun 25, 2023 11:56:49 GMT
Thanks for your rather constructive input............................. I live in a hostile country. Then maybe you should emigrate - maybe China would prefer your needs................. |
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Post by borchester on Jun 25, 2023 12:09:44 GMT
We have some people wailing on forums here about the death of the UK manufacturing industry. Yet I like watching programs like Wheeler Dealers and Find it and Fix it programs. I am always amazed at the people out there that will use machines to design replacement parts for machines and body work. Inlcuding making thier own bolts when they can't find what they want. Seems to me if you are reasonably loaded why not invest in an old British motorbike like a BSA or AJS, or a tractor like a Ferguson or old cars like a SD1 or Hillman Avenger. By doing this we keep the cottage industry going and also maintain a bit of Britain's industrial past. Probably because it is not worth it.
Self praise is no recommendation, but 60 years ago I trained as a marine engineer and if you give me two tin cans, a length of pipe and a pint of petrol and I will make them run from one side of the room to the other. I am not bragging, that is simply the way I and tens of thousands of others were trained. It was fun. But these days, some lad can press a button and have fifty such devices produced in the time it would take me to get my boiler suit on and screw a Senior Service into my face.
If anyone wants to make money out of the garden shed, put in an armchair and type writer and write a book
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Post by borchester on Jun 25, 2023 12:14:23 GMT
After WW2 Europe rebuilt rejigged new machines and a willing workforce as did Asia , they had less overheads lower wages and even with shipping costs they were very competitive, we did not slow out of date machinery methods that cost more to produce the same widget or whatever, we could not compete, the Unions fought all and any changes the owners want to introduce to be more efficient IMO saw it happen up close and personal The difference between us and other nations was that Atlee's government pissed the Martial Aid money on almost anything but supporting industry in the way of Germany, Japan and many others. And you're right about the unions but their obstinacy wasn't confined to the immediate post-war era, they were still fucking this country up thirty and forty years later. The difference between us and other nations is that our national dress is sackcloth and ashes while Johnny Foreigner likes to brag a little.
The UK had full employment between 1945 and at least 1970. Which is pretty much what we have right now, except that we don't like to admit it
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jun 25, 2023 12:48:31 GMT
I live in a hostile country. Then maybe you should emigrate - maybe China would prefer your needs................. If you are intent on fucking this thread I will report you. Now shut the fuck up. |
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Post by besoeker3 on Jun 25, 2023 13:19:37 GMT
Then maybe you should emigrate - maybe China would prefer your needs................. If you are intent on fucking this thread I will report you. Now shut the fuck up. Always the charmer aren't you................. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jun 25, 2023 13:21:56 GMT
Yes you need to know your markets, it really is common sense and you need to know the competition and what they are trading too. The problem is you need ideas, then maybe capital to put it into reality. There is no magic formula and I bet most will fail versus any that succeed. One of the biggest issues I have seen with the many business plans that have been bought to me by would be entrepreneurs is the lack at looking at the market. Competition, pricing and even desirability of the product are not considered. A self cleaning toothbrush might seem desirable, but how many people would pay £12 for one. The other thing is protection. If you want investment you need to demonstrate that you can protect your product. No investor will put money into an invention so you can prove its popularity only to have the Chinese make it cheaper once it reaches scale. It's the first thing I do, to see what I can get to do a particular job for how much. About 6m ago I was looking at this with respect to a certain product and what I found was that it was a matter of how much of the business pie I was going to do. You take a product with a market price, there is so much of that money for selling it, so much for assembling it, then you take the pieces and the same is true. It all splits down so there is not one part of the job any more profitable than any other in terms of what is needed. The rest is down to you and if you can figure out a better way to do this or that job. For example jobs may include drilling holes in a box, screen printing, assembly of circuit boards and so on. This means you don't need a huge investment to start. What you can do is just do a small slice of it and subcontract the rest until you have the product selling in the market and then you can say buy another machine and then your profit per unit steps up a bit more and you do it piecemeal. It's why I'm 100% confident it can be done.
Also fuck what some tosser Brit investor thinks.I have said at the beginning that if you really want this to work the golden rule is to use as little of Britain's products and services as you can. Any time you do, see it as the weak link in the chain that can fuck the whole enterprise up. Why do you suppose so many businesses fail here and why so many work in China. This is the reason.
Your point about copying is also invalid. For my example, which I'm still minded to do when I have some time, the market already supplies the product. There are good ones, bad ones, ultra cheap ones, funky ones, you name it. All I need to do is pop onto the scene with my own version and then as the customer browses they might like my one and there again they might like a different one. If we were all stupid Brits who copy each other we would have a market of identical products, a bit like the UK's men's clothing market (any colour you like as long as it is black or grey). The next one to pop onto the market after mine could take inspiration from me and I'm happy they do, as I would take inspiration from what is on the market now. The thing is, if you can do it then you don't need to copy every aspect and make a clone. Like an artist you see someone using a particular idea, you like and respect it and then you use that idea , add in your bit and the market moves on. This is how we get progress. Everyone in the market is always modifying and improving their product to keep up. This market in China is a free market. You are as good as your product and your price. Also if you stuck a Made in England badge on it in China they would think wow , Ive not seen one of those before. It would be a bit of a novelty.
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Post by zanygame on Jun 25, 2023 14:49:55 GMT
One of the biggest issues I have seen with the many business plans that have been bought to me by would be entrepreneurs is the lack at looking at the market. Competition, pricing and even desirability of the product are not considered. A self cleaning toothbrush might seem desirable, but how many people would pay £12 for one. The other thing is protection. If you want investment you need to demonstrate that you can protect your product. No investor will put money into an invention so you can prove its popularity only to have the Chinese make it cheaper once it reaches scale. It's the first thing I do, to see what I can get to do a particular job for how much. About 6m ago I was looking at this with respect to a certain product and what I found was that it was a matter of how much of the business pie I was going to do. You take a product with a market price, there is so much of that money for selling it, so much for assembling it, then you take the pieces and the same is true. It all splits down so there is not one part of the job any more profitable than any other in terms of what is needed. The rest is down to you and if you can figure out a better way to do this or that job. For example jobs may include drilling holes in a box, screen printing, assembly of circuit boards and so on. This means you don't need a huge investment to start. What you can do is just do a small slice of it and subcontract the rest until you have the product selling in the market and then you can say buy another machine and then your profit per unit steps up a bit more and you do it piecemeal. It's why I'm 100% confident it can be done.
Also fuck what some tosser Brit investor thinks.I have said at the beginning that if you really want this to work the golden rule is to use as little of Britain's products and services as you can. Any time you do, see it as the weak link in the chain that can fuck the whole enterprise up. Why do you suppose so many businesses fail here and why so many work in China. This is the reason.
Your point about copying is also invalid. For my example, which I'm still minded to do when I have some time, the market already supplies the product. There are good ones, bad ones, ultra cheap ones, funky ones, you name it. All I need to do is pop onto the scene with my own version and then as the customer browses they might like my one and there again they might like a different one. If we were all stupid Brits who copy each other we would have a market of identical products, a bit like the UK's men's clothing market (any colour you like as long as it is black or grey). The next one to pop onto the market after mine could take inspiration from me and I'm happy they do, as I would take inspiration from what is on the market now. The thing is, if you can do it then you don't need to copy every aspect and make a clone. Like an artist you see someone using a particular idea, you like and respect it and then you use that idea , add in your bit and the market moves on. This is how we get progress. Everyone in the market is always modifying and improving their product to keep up. This market in China is a free market. You are as good as your product and your price. Also if you stuck a Made in England badge on it in China they would think wow , Ive not seen one of those before. It would be a bit of a novelty.
I'm sorry Baron but from my viewpoint you will never make a successful business in this haphazard way. There are a thousand factors against such an approach. Not least credibility and trust. Not to mention visibility. You are just way off the mark as to how it works, but I wish you luck. |
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