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Post by sandypine on Jun 17, 2023 16:27:52 GMT
France and the Netherlands had referenda as regards the EU Constitution and rejected it and got an EU Constitution. Having a say is important but realistically it has to be followed as policy. What are you talking about? France and the Netherlands rejected an EU Constitution in the referenda you laud. There is now an EU Constitution facilitated in amending treaties. What the people rejected has appeared in very short measure anyway. According to one of the lead authors the amending treaty includes all the bits that the Constitutional treaty had. The difference being of course that 'the people' were removed from any interference. |
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Post by Einhorn on Jun 17, 2023 16:30:20 GMT
What are you talking about? France and the Netherlands rejected an EU Constitution in the referenda you laud. There is now an EU Constitution facilitated in amending treaties. What the people rejected has appeared in very short measure anyway. According to one of the lead authors the amending treaty includes all the bits that the Constitutional treaty had. The difference being of course that 'the people' were removed from any interference. Didn't they have a second referendum after the wording of the proposal was changed to accommodate them? |
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Post by bancroft on Jun 17, 2023 16:41:00 GMT
France and the Netherlands had referenda as regards the EU Constitution and rejected it and got an EU Constitution. Having a say is important but realistically it has to be followed as policy. What are you talking about? I do recall the Netherlands and Ireland being required to vote again as they had rejected an EU treaty, it was really strange. |
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Post by Pacifico on Jun 17, 2023 16:53:58 GMT
A referendum was not held in the 1990's for precisely the same reason that many didnt want a referendum in 2016. If you allow the people a say then you may well not get the answer you want. Exactly. Compare that situation with Western European democracies where the government is forced to give the people a say on such matters. You've hit the nail on the head, Doc. The UK constitution facilitates undemocratic government. I tend to agree - the only real democracy in Europe is Switzerland. |
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Post by Einhorn on Jun 17, 2023 17:04:10 GMT
What are you talking about? I do recall the Netherlands and Ireland being required to vote again as they had rejected an EU treaty, it was really strange. They voted twice. But they voted on different things each time. This lie has been debunked so many times, I wonder why you bother. |
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Post by Einhorn on Jun 17, 2023 17:05:01 GMT
Exactly. Compare that situation with Western European democracies where the government is forced to give the people a say on such matters. You've hit the nail on the head, Doc. The UK constitution facilitates undemocratic government. I tend to agree - the only real democracy in Europe is Switzerland. Well, that's not likely to come to the UK. The union is too fragile. Just my opinion, of course. |
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Post by bancroft on Jun 17, 2023 17:13:42 GMT
I do recall the Netherlands and Ireland being required to vote again as they had rejected an EU treaty, it was really strange. They voted twice. But they voted on different things each time. This lie has been debunked so many times, I wonder why you bother. Well I don't recall us being asked to vote again in that time before they voted again? |
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Post by Einhorn on Jun 17, 2023 17:15:06 GMT
They voted twice. But they voted on different things each time. This lie has been debunked so many times, I wonder why you bother. Well I don't recall us being asked to vote again in that time before they voted again? I've no idea what you're trying to say. |
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Post by bancroft on Jun 17, 2023 17:18:17 GMT
You are saying the others signed an amended treaty if so why did not the UK also have to resign an amended treaty made for the others?
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Post by Pacifico on Jun 17, 2023 17:25:45 GMT
I tend to agree - the only real democracy in Europe is Switzerland. Well, that's not likely to come to the UK. The union is too fragile. Just my opinion, of course. I agree - the UK is like the EU and there is no way those in charge will allow real democracy. |
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Post by Einhorn on Jun 17, 2023 18:18:24 GMT
Well, that's not likely to come to the UK. The union is too fragile. Just my opinion, of course. I agree - the UK is like the EU and there is no way those in charge will allow real democracy. The EU doesn't have treaty authority to force a referendum in any member state. The UK parliament has the constitutional right to hold a referendum on any matter. The EU does not hold EU wide referendums because it cannot; the UK parliament does not hold regular referendums because it chooses not to. There's a big difference, Doc. |
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Post by sandypine on Jun 17, 2023 18:28:32 GMT
France and the Netherlands rejected an EU Constitution in the referenda you laud. There is now an EU Constitution facilitated in amending treaties. What the people rejected has appeared in very short measure anyway. According to one of the lead authors the amending treaty includes all the bits that the Constitutional treaty had. The difference being of course that 'the people' were removed from any interference. Didn't they have a second referendum after the wording of the proposal was changed to accommodate them? As far as I am aware neither France nor the Netherlands had a rerun of the referenda. They both rejected the EU Constitutional Treaty. A few years later their parliaments accepted the amending treaty basically creating an EU Constitution, according to D'estang, and effectively the same thing as the Constitutional Treaty but in a different format. I was wondering how this fitted into your thoughts on how democratic everyone else is and how democratic the EU is. |
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Post by Einhorn on Jun 17, 2023 18:30:42 GMT
Didn't they have a second referendum after the wording of the proposal was changed to accommodate them? As far as I am aware neither France nor the Netherlands had a rerun of the referenda. They both rejected the EU Constitutional Treaty. A few years later their parliaments accepted the amending treaty basically creating an EU Constitution, according to D'estang, and effectively the same thing as the Constitutional Treaty but in a different format. I was wondering how this fitted into your thoughts on how democratic everyone else is and how democratic the EU is. Please provide links. |
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Post by sandypine on Jun 17, 2023 18:40:23 GMT
As far as I am aware neither France nor the Netherlands had a rerun of the referenda. They both rejected the EU Constitutional Treaty. A few years later their parliaments accepted the amending treaty basically creating an EU Constitution, according to D'estang, and effectively the same thing as the Constitutional Treaty but in a different format. I was wondering how this fitted into your thoughts on how democratic everyone else is and how democratic the EU is. Please provide links. |
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Post by Einhorn on Jun 17, 2023 18:47:14 GMT
There's your answer, then. The Article deals with Ireland first. It makes it clear that the second referendum in Ireland was based on an amended proposal. So, there was no second referendum on the same issue. You've been told this dozens of times. 'In October 2002, more than 62% voted to back the Treaty of Nice on a turnout of almost 50%. Changing the people's minds would literally come down to vigorous campaigning and an amendment which promised to keep Ireland out of any future common European defence force.'The Irish voted against the Treaty because they had concerns about a European defence force. The EU listened to their concerns and removed details which allowed for that possibility. The Irish were listened to. They didn't vote on the same thing twice. The proposal they voted on the second time was materially different from the proposal they voted on the first time. |
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