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Post by Einhorn on Jun 17, 2023 8:53:28 GMT
So, you agree that the EU had no legal authority to compel a referendum? If so, you must agree that it wasn't the EU's fault that Major didn't hold a referendum. Where does the fault lie, then? Obviously with Major and the UK's outdated, undemocratic constitution. Whoa. We are not discussing legality we are discussing democracy. The EU alone decides its membership and on what conditions. The Council can decide what those conditions are and demand the Commission makes rules accordingly. The EU are supposed to be paragons of virtue when it comes to democracy but they were more than happy to see the UK electorate seconded into a Constitutional sphere without a direct say. Legally correct but then democracy depends very much on morals. No. The EU doesn't decide. The Treaties decide. The treaties don't allow the EU to compel a referendum. There was nothing the EU could do. I repeat: the EU did not have the power to compel a referendum in the UK. Once you understand that, you will finally fathom that it was the UK's outdated, undemocratic constitution that was at fault for there being no referendum in the 90s.
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Post by Orac on Jun 17, 2023 9:15:38 GMT
IMHO - since the end of the Blair administration, the UK's government (actual administration) has not been elected (at all).
I recall the BBC changed tone dramatically after 1997 and thought this was a natural result of the switch in power (I thought nothing of it). The thing is though it never switched back, or changed tone, when the conservatives notionally took power - it just kept going in the same direction.
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Post by Pacifico on Jun 17, 2023 10:43:02 GMT
Yes - and that problem was solved. We finally allowed the people a voice - and they spoke. Yes, almost 30 years later. If a referendum had been held in the 90s, the resentment may not have brewed. The UK system is fundamentally undemocratic, and its failures have been projected elsewhere. A referendum was not held in the 1990's for precisely the same reason that many didnt want a referendum in 2016. If you allow the people a say then you may well not get the answer you want.
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Post by Dan Dare on Jun 17, 2023 11:05:42 GMT
If referendums are the panacea for the 'demographic deficit' then it would seem that more of them would be a good thing.
And yet the Leave faction has set its face firmly against a re-run of the 2016 referendum. Is that because of a concern that the people might not deliver the required answer this time around?
Is there some constitutional principle which holds that a referendum result is carved in stone as if brought down from the Mount and remains Holy Writ for ever more?
There is a good case in democratic terms for referendums on controversial topics to be repeated every few years, especially when the winning margin is very small.
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Post by Orac on Jun 17, 2023 11:17:25 GMT
If referendums are the panacea for the 'demographic deficit' then it would seem that more of them would be a good thing. The issue becomes the discretion to have repeated referendums on a particular issue. I would have said some limit were reasonable - i.e. once per decade, per issue. In the case of a motion being passed, the clock should tick from implementation of a change. I don't this is remotely a panacea, but it could feasibly remove serious and long term democratic blockages.
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Post by bancroft on Jun 17, 2023 11:17:27 GMT
IMHO - since the end of the Blair administration, the UK's government (actual administration) has not been elected (at all). I recall the BBC changed tone dramatically after 1997 and thought this was a natural result of the switch in power (I thought nothing of it). The thing is though it never switched back, or changed tone, when the conservatives notionally took power - it just kept going in the same direction. I'm not sure I follow that, can't ever remember electing a cabinet just a prime minister or local MP.
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Post by Dan Dare on Jun 17, 2023 11:21:41 GMT
If referendums are the panacea for the 'demographic deficit' then it would seem that more of them would be a good thing. The issue becomes the discretion to have repeated referendums on a particular issue. I would have said some limit were reasonable - i.e. once per decade, per issue. In the case of a motion being passed, the clock should tick from implementation of a change. I don't this is remotely a panacea, but it could feasibly remove serious and long term democratic blockages. Yes ten years seems a reasonable compromise. If a promised solution can't be shown to be working after that length of time there's a high probability it never will.
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Post by sandypine on Jun 17, 2023 11:24:23 GMT
Whoa. We are not discussing legality we are discussing democracy. The EU alone decides its membership and on what conditions. The Council can decide what those conditions are and demand the Commission makes rules accordingly. The EU are supposed to be paragons of virtue when it comes to democracy but they were more than happy to see the UK electorate seconded into a Constitutional sphere without a direct say. Legally correct but then democracy depends very much on morals. No. The EU doesn't decide. The Treaties decide. The treaties don't allow the EU to compel a referendum. There was nothing the EU could do. I repeat: the EU did not have the power to compel a referendum in the UK. Once you understand that, you will finally fathom that it was the UK's outdated, undemocratic constitution that was at fault for there being no referendum in the 90s. The treaties are inanimate pieces of paper from which the animate parts of the EU can organise that which they want. This was clearly demonstrated by the rejection of the Constitutional treaty through referenda whereby an amending treaty appeared that did the same thing and did not require referenda only ratification by National Parliaments, except Ireland who had to vote twice to get it right. Referenda are for the EU dangerous things as they move power to the people as opposed to the executive. The point about referenda was that if one promotes oneself (the EU) as a democratic body then one should expect the people to be all powerful irrespective of how that is Constitutionally brought about. As regards UK referenda the EEC should have insisted that the UK should invoke some form of mandate measure before signing up if it promoted democracy. As I said the process that was adopted eventually weakened the Remain position. In line with other major Constitutional changes Heath should have gone to the country with membership of the EEC as party policy. This is in line with the UK Constitution and time honoured in its use. I agree once treaties were signed then it was the treaties that were the legal entities. This does not mean that the UK Constitution is wrong it just means that a weakness within it could be exploited as I have already said.
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Post by Orac on Jun 17, 2023 11:24:50 GMT
IMHO - since the end of the Blair administration, the UK's government (actual administration) has not been elected (at all). I recall the BBC changed tone dramatically after 1997 and thought this was a natural result of the switch in power (I thought nothing of it). The thing is though it never switched back, or changed tone, when the conservatives notionally took power - it just kept going in the same direction. I'm not sure I follow that, can't ever remember electing a cabinet just a prime minister or local MP. I'm saying the cabinet doesn't actually run the country or have much, or perhaps any, power - nor do elected ministers. The word used in espionage is 'compromised'.
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Post by sandypine on Jun 17, 2023 11:32:17 GMT
If referendums are the panacea for the 'demographic deficit' then it would seem that more of them would be a good thing. And yet the Leave faction has set its face firmly against a re-run of the 2016 referendum. Is that because of a concern that the people might not deliver the required answer this time around? Is there some constitutional principle which holds that a referendum result is carved in stone as if brought down from the Mount and remains Holy Writ for ever more? There is a good case in democratic terms for referendums on controversial topics to be repeated every few years, especially when the winning margin is very small. Referenda should in general terms be restricted to that which changes the peoples relationship with the Constitution. The point about the rejection of a new EU referendum is that the campaign to Remain has been ongoing, is still well funded, is still well supported within the higher echelons of power and in reality Reman groups have done as much as they possibly can to stop the UK from leaving and to keep intact as much as they can to facilitate some form of re-entry. The point about Leaving is one actually has to complete the reality of leaving. We reached a fork in the road and the people decided to go right, the power within the establishment kept pulling to the left so that progress on the right hand path was both restricted and bumpy.
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Post by bancroft on Jun 17, 2023 11:39:26 GMT
Well the cabinet are meant to work with the civil service to get things effected how good that is I don't know.
You may get obstruction from the top via Civil Service idealogues or it may be from disaffected staff at the bottom rung. I've seen the latter happen at first hand over the years and it is normally bitter people.
I was a process analyst and the things I had to do to get change done, lazy people, others trying to frighten you with name dropping and needing to threaten that if they did not get answers I would go above them and if that did work my manager would go higher.
Normally when they see you mean business they will break and play along and normally delegate. Of course to do this you needed your manager's backing. A couple of times I thought I might have fights in the office, I just kept my cool yet was persistent.
I got things done and was recognised.
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Post by Einhorn on Jun 17, 2023 11:48:46 GMT
Yes, almost 30 years later. If a referendum had been held in the 90s, the resentment may not have brewed. The UK system is fundamentally undemocratic, and its failures have been projected elsewhere. A referendum was not held in the 1990's for precisely the same reason that many didnt want a referendum in 2016. If you allow the people a say then you may well not get the answer you want. Exactly. Compare that situation with Western European democracies where the government is forced to give the people a say on such matters. You've hit the nail on the head, Doc. The UK constitution facilitates undemocratic government.
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Post by Orac on Jun 17, 2023 12:09:30 GMT
It has the same weaknesses as any 'democratic' system - that is, it doesn't deal comfortably with a situation in which 'the people' want something the establishment doesn't want a lot.
I think it could possibly be addressed by a powerful elected role being created to oversee the civil service
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Post by sandypine on Jun 17, 2023 16:19:14 GMT
A referendum was not held in the 1990's for precisely the same reason that many didnt want a referendum in 2016. If you allow the people a say then you may well not get the answer you want. Exactly. Compare that situation with Western European democracies where the government is forced to give the people a say on such matters. You've hit the nail on the head, Doc. The UK constitution facilitates undemocratic government. France and the Netherlands had referenda as regards the EU Constitution and rejected it and got an EU Constitution. Having a say is important but realistically it has to be followed as policy.
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Post by Einhorn on Jun 17, 2023 16:20:18 GMT
Exactly. Compare that situation with Western European democracies where the government is forced to give the people a say on such matters. You've hit the nail on the head, Doc. The UK constitution facilitates undemocratic government. France and the Netherlands had referenda as regards the EU Constitution and rejected it and got an EU Constitution. Having a say is important but realistically it has to be followed as policy. What are you talking about?
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