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Post by bancroft on Jun 16, 2023 19:10:19 GMT
Where is the Democratic traceability from the grass roots citizens to enable legislation?
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Post by Einhorn on Jun 16, 2023 19:16:23 GMT
Where is the Democratic traceability from the grass roots citizens to enable legislation? It comes from the referendums the member states held when they agreed to the treaty changes. There was no referendum in the UK. There was no voter agreement to the changes Major agreed to in the 90s. But only because the UK is less democratic than most countries in Western Europe. It's not the EU's fault. The UK's constitution is ancient. It goes back to the middle ages. Most countries in Europe have a modern written constitution that reflects modern ideas of democracy. That doesn't exist in the UK, so the British people weren't given a say in the 90s. There's absolutely nothing the EU could have done about the UK's democratic deficit. |
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Post by Vinny on Jun 16, 2023 20:53:45 GMT
Sunak campaigned for leave in the referendum.
And he was right.
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Post by bancroft on Jun 16, 2023 21:16:54 GMT
Where is the Democratic traceability from the grass roots citizens to enable legislation? It comes from the referendums the member states held when they agreed to the treaty changes. There was no referendum in the UK. There was no voter agreement to the changes Major agreed to in the 90s. But only because the UK is less democratic than most countries in Western Europe. It's not the EU's fault. The UK's constitution is ancient. It goes back to the middle ages. Most countries in Europe have a modern written constitution that reflects modern ideas of democracy. That doesn't exist in the UK, so the British people weren't given a say in the 90s. There's absolutely nothing the EU could have done about the UK's democratic deficit. So there is no traceability from grass roots to enable legislation, despite your claims about the UK we can launch petitions and if reaching a certain number will launch discussions in the House of Commons. |
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Post by Einhorn on Jun 16, 2023 21:17:59 GMT
It comes from the referendums the member states held when they agreed to the treaty changes. There was no referendum in the UK. There was no voter agreement to the changes Major agreed to in the 90s. But only because the UK is less democratic than most countries in Western Europe. It's not the EU's fault. The UK's constitution is ancient. It goes back to the middle ages. Most countries in Europe have a modern written constitution that reflects modern ideas of democracy. That doesn't exist in the UK, so the British people weren't given a say in the 90s. There's absolutely nothing the EU could have done about the UK's democratic deficit. So there is no traceability from grass roots to enable legislation, despite your claims about the UK we can launch petitions and if reaching a certain number will launch discussions in the House of Commons. EU citizens can launch petitions too. There is a system within the EU framework for petitions. There is also the petition system within each country. For example, when the UK was in the EU, UK citizens could have started a petition within the EU framework and they could also have petitioned Parliament to instruct the PM to raise the matter at the EU Council. |
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Post by Pacifico on Jun 16, 2023 21:43:33 GMT
And yet when we finally did as you suggest, you have not stopped complaining about it. Yes. The referendum reflected anger at the fact that referendums had not been held on important matters. So what? That only underlines the undemocratic nature of the British constitution. Major should have held a referendum in the 90s. He didn't. That's not the EU's fault. So now we have finally become more European, why are you still complaining? |
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Post by Einhorn on Jun 16, 2023 21:47:36 GMT
Yes. The referendum reflected anger at the fact that referendums had not been held on important matters. So what? That only underlines the undemocratic nature of the British constitution. Major should have held a referendum in the 90s. He didn't. That's not the EU's fault. So now we have finally become more European, why are you still complaining? I'm pointing out that there never was democracy, at least not in the sense that it is understood in most Western countries. A minority rules the majority. A party that got 43% of the vote ruled over the other 57% after the last election. No need to go into how more than half of Parliament is unelected, etc. |
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Post by Pacifico on Jun 16, 2023 21:57:12 GMT
So now we have finally become more European, why are you still complaining? I'm pointing out that there never was democracy, at least not in the sense that it is understood in most Western countries. A minority rules the majority. A party that got 43% of the vote ruled over the other 57% after the last election. No need to go into how more than half of Parliament is unelected, etc. So we had the type of democracy you wanted - a referendum. ..and yet you still complain. With regards to who voted for what - absolutely zero people voted for the current government in Ireland, so do they not have democracy? |
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Post by Einhorn on Jun 16, 2023 22:50:21 GMT
I'm pointing out that there never was democracy, at least not in the sense that it is understood in most Western countries. A minority rules the majority. A party that got 43% of the vote ruled over the other 57% after the last election. No need to go into how more than half of Parliament is unelected, etc. So we had the type of democracy you wanted - a referendum. ..and yet you still complain. With regards to who voted for what - absolutely zero people voted for the current government in Ireland, so do they not have democracy? Read the thread, Doc. It isn't just me complaining about the lack of a referendum in the 90s. The problem is the ancient constitution that allowed Major to get away with not holding a referendum. Most importantly in respect of this thread, Boris was fined for breaking Parliament's democratic instructions about mingling during the Covid virus. |
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Post by steppenwolf on Jun 17, 2023 6:34:58 GMT
It's got nothing to do with this thread. In fact it's got nothing to do with anything. "Partygate" was a minor sideshow that was blown up into an issue by the Remainer cabals (including the BBC) to try to oust Boris. When people look back on this passage of politics they'll be bemused as to how such a trivial issue could be used to unseat one of best PMs we've ever had. |
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Post by Pacifico on Jun 17, 2023 6:40:42 GMT
So we had the type of democracy you wanted - a referendum. ..and yet you still complain. With regards to who voted for what - absolutely zero people voted for the current government in Ireland, so do they not have democracy? Read the thread, Doc. It isn't just me that complaining about the lack of a referendum in the 90s. The problem is the ancient constitution that allowed Major to get away with not holding a referendum.Yes - and that problem was solved. We finally allowed the people a voice - and they spoke. |
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Post by sandypine on Jun 17, 2023 7:51:32 GMT
The largest minority can form a government before all the other minorities who still have a voice in parliament and can hold the government of that largest minority to account. A dictatorship is one whereby there is absolute rule irrespective of any level of representation. I think you are being a bit over dramatic. Yes. The largest MINORITY. But in most European countries, minorities are not allowed to rule over the majority. That's just plain undemocratic. In those countries, there would have to be another election or the largest minority would have to join in a coalition with another party so that they make up more than 50%. The UK system is patently undemocratic. That said, it's entirely in keeping with the overall undemocratic nature of the system (unelected judges making laws, more than half of Parliament being unelected, first past the post, etc.). Why do you use the word 'rule'. Governments govern that is not ruling which implies an inability to counter those who rule and an inability to hold them to any sort of account. The EU Council tends to rule and passes that rule to the Commission. The make up of the Council means that a minority could rule over the majority and the same works for QMV. No system is perfect and a country having a veto means that a very small minority could block policy. |
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Post by Einhorn on Jun 17, 2023 8:01:10 GMT
Yes. The largest MINORITY. But in most European countries, minorities are not allowed to rule over the majority. That's just plain undemocratic. In those countries, there would have to be another election or the largest minority would have to join in a coalition with another party so that they make up more than 50%. The UK system is patently undemocratic. That said, it's entirely in keeping with the overall undemocratic nature of the system (unelected judges making laws, more than half of Parliament being unelected, first past the post, etc.). Why do you use the word 'rule'. Governments govern that is not ruling which implies an inability to counter those who rule and an inability to hold them to any sort of account. The EU Council tends to rule and passes that rule to the Commission. The make up of the Council means that a minority could rule over the majority and the same works for QMV. No system is perfect and a country having a veto means that a very small minority could block policy. It's still not democracy if the minority govern/rule the majority. |
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Post by Einhorn on Jun 17, 2023 8:03:59 GMT
Read the thread, Doc. It isn't just me that complaining about the lack of a referendum in the 90s. The problem is the ancient constitution that allowed Major to get away with not holding a referendum.Yes - and that problem was solved. We finally allowed the people a voice - and they spoke. Yes, almost 30 years later. If a referendum had been held in the 90s, the resentment may not have brewed. The UK system is fundamentally undemocratic, and its failures have been projected elsewhere. |
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Post by sandypine on Jun 17, 2023 8:05:43 GMT
Actually it is, if they are as democratically orientated as they are supposed to be then they may refuse to accept membership unless the electorate agree. It was not that we were removing a British Constitution we were taking on board an EU Membership and eventually a Constitution. It is the lack of referenda in many aspects that has resulted eventually in Brexit. If the electorate had been trusted they may well have agreed to all that Major and teh EU wanted and the case for Brexit weakened. Exactly. Not all, but a portion, of the voting public voted the way they did in the 2016 referendum because they had not been given a referendum in the 90s. If they had been given a referendum in the 90s, they would not have voted that way. The undemocratic UK constitution did not give them a vote in the 90s, so they made their feelings felt when they voted in 2016. Those voters took their anger out on the EU, when all the blame belonged to the UK constitution. Other EU nations don't have an axe to grind because their national Constitutions made it mandatory for a referendum in their country. The UK is one of the few European countries that doesn't have a democratic Constitution, with the result that the British people weren't given a vote. The problem was always the undemocratic nature of the British system, not that of the EU. Not quite I am saying that Heath's taking us in and Major's involving us deeper and Brown's refusal to give a referendum on a Constitutional Treaty all contributed to weakening the case for Remain. We do not know what would have happened, the problem being of course if no had been voted for at anytime then the whole thing is academic as we would not have been members. Realistically it is up to the EU to polish up its democratic medal and demand any member state gives the populace a direct say. However we know that in general terms the EU is intent on allowing tinkering by the electorate by way of a democratic say but sets it face as flint against any consideration of policy and direction being allowed to the electorate. The UK, at one time, voted for governments whose directions were radically different. No longer as each party is intent on being a better manager of a consensual system that works for them but leaves the poor British electorate floundering around seeking true differences and finding none. Direction is decided at statesman level and most politicians cannot wait to be movers and shakers on the world stage. At least Trump with all his faults decided rightly that the only constituency that mattered was that of the US and it was their needs and wishes that were paramount. |
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