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Post by Einhorn on Jun 16, 2023 16:58:55 GMT
I And the Covid laws were NOT made by Boris. They were made by Sage (and the Civil Service) Can you explain how Sage managed to make a law under which there was criminal liability? Doesn't that require Parliament? And if so, how was Johnson not acting undemocratically when he disobeyed the will of a majority in Parliament by attending that party? |
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Post by bancroft on Jun 16, 2023 17:10:30 GMT
It was democratic, the EU was a club and refused to changes its rules for Cameron. So he asked the nation to decide, that was democracy. Personally I think we should give Scotland a date for another vote if the public consenscus is still there perhaps 2026, 12 years after the last. Yes, the EU was a club, and changing the rules could only be done by a majority vote. Cameron was outvoted in a democratic vote taken by the leaders of the heads of state of the member states. He lost that democratic vote. The gammons, who pretend to favour democracy, then called for the UK to leave, because they didn't like being in a democratic system where the vote could go against them. Not sure who the Gammons were yet the Tories were receiving many protests as EU practises started to permeate the UK and people had not been told about this. I was in one group that made over 100 allegations of sedition against the government. This meant going to the police and filling out applications of a crime. Most were either ex-forces or ex-police who had known about the British Constitution. The police laughed at first at Sedition as this is an outdated charge yet the US used it against the Jan 6th protesters. MPs had signed several political agreements from the 90's without explaining the impact to the people and the realisation was dawning this was the wolf in sheep clothing. Our banks get rich yet the rest of the economy gets flattened due to EU harmonisation and our armed forces become the bulk of the EU army. People started asking questions and people were not getting answers, Farage started to bridge the gap. Now we see the looming threat of the WTO...... |
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Post by Einhorn on Jun 16, 2023 17:14:13 GMT
Yes, the EU was a club, and changing the rules could only be done by a majority vote. Cameron was outvoted in a democratic vote taken by the leaders of the heads of state of the member states. He lost that democratic vote. The gammons, who pretend to favour democracy, then called for the UK to leave, because they didn't like being in a democratic system where the vote could go against them. Not sure who the Gammons were yet the Tories were receiving many protests as EU practises started to permeate the UK and people had not been told about this. I was in one group that made over 100 allegations of sedition against the government. This meant going to the police and filling out applications of a crime. Most were either ex-forces or ex-police who had known about the British Constitution. The police laughed at first at Sedition as this is an outdated charge yet the US used it against the Jan 6th protesters. MPs had signed several political agreements from the 90's without explaining the impact to the people and the realisation was dawning this was the wolf in sheep clothing. Our banks get rich yet the rest of the economy gets flattened due to EU harmonisation and our armed forces become the bulk of the EU army. People started asking questions and people were not getting answers, Farage started to bridge the gap. Now we see the looming threat of the WTO...... The EU cannot be blamed for the essentially undemocratic nature of the UK constitution. Other countries required referendums. You may recall that in Belgium, not only was the consent of the country required, but the consent of every region within that country was required for the adoption of an EU initiative. It's not the EU's fault if the UK doesn't have something similar. |
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Post by Pacifico on Jun 16, 2023 17:27:16 GMT
Not sure who the Gammons were yet the Tories were receiving many protests as EU practises started to permeate the UK and people had not been told about this. I was in one group that made over 100 allegations of sedition against the government. This meant going to the police and filling out applications of a crime. Most were either ex-forces or ex-police who had known about the British Constitution. The police laughed at first at Sedition as this is an outdated charge yet the US used it against the Jan 6th protesters. MPs had signed several political agreements from the 90's without explaining the impact to the people and the realisation was dawning this was the wolf in sheep clothing. Our banks get rich yet the rest of the economy gets flattened due to EU harmonisation and our armed forces become the bulk of the EU army. People started asking questions and people were not getting answers, Farage started to bridge the gap. Now we see the looming threat of the WTO...... The EU cannot be blamed for the essentially undemocratic nature of the UK constitution. Other countries required referendums. You may recall that in Belgium, not only was the consent of the country required, but the consent of every region within that country was required for the adoption of an EU initiative. It's not the EU's fault if the UK doesn't have something similar. And yet when we finally did as you suggest, you have not stopped complaining about it. |
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Post by Einhorn on Jun 16, 2023 17:30:58 GMT
The EU cannot be blamed for the essentially undemocratic nature of the UK constitution. Other countries required referendums. You may recall that in Belgium, not only was the consent of the country required, but the consent of every region within that country was required for the adoption of an EU initiative. It's not the EU's fault if the UK doesn't have something similar. And yet when we finally did as you suggest, you have not stopped complaining about it. Yes. The referendum reflected anger at the fact that referendums had not been held on important matters. So what? That only underlines the undemocratic nature of the British constitution. Major should have held a referendum in the 90s. He didn't. That's not the EU's fault. |
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Post by bancroft on Jun 16, 2023 17:35:26 GMT
Not sure who the Gammons were yet the Tories were receiving many protests as EU practises started to permeate the UK and people had not been told about this. I was in one group that made over 100 allegations of sedition against the government. This meant going to the police and filling out applications of a crime. Most were either ex-forces or ex-police who had known about the British Constitution. The police laughed at first at Sedition as this is an outdated charge yet the US used it against the Jan 6th protesters. MPs had signed several political agreements from the 90's without explaining the impact to the people and the realisation was dawning this was the wolf in sheep clothing. Our banks get rich yet the rest of the economy gets flattened due to EU harmonisation and our armed forces become the bulk of the EU army. People started asking questions and people were not getting answers, Farage started to bridge the gap. Now we see the looming threat of the WTO...... The EU cannot be blamed for the essentially undemocratic nature of the UK constitution. Other countries required referendums. You may recall that in Belgium, not only was the consent of the country required, but the consent of every region within that country was required for the adoption of an EU initiative. It's not the EU's fault if the UK doesn't have something similar. It seems to me the BBB are thinking similarly, we thought we were joining a trading zone not expecting to be ordered around by foreign EU interests. |
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Post by Einhorn on Jun 16, 2023 17:48:43 GMT
The EU cannot be blamed for the essentially undemocratic nature of the UK constitution. Other countries required referendums. You may recall that in Belgium, not only was the consent of the country required, but the consent of every region within that country was required for the adoption of an EU initiative. It's not the EU's fault if the UK doesn't have something similar. It seems to me the BBB are thinking similarly, we thought we were joining a trading zone not expecting to be ordered around by foreign EU interests. Again, it's not the EU's fault the British government didn't give the British people a referendum in the 90s. That should have happened. The only poll from the time indicates that the public would have voted in favour of the EU proposal if a referendum had been held. That's not satisfactory, though. If a referendum had been held after Black Wednesday (?) in September of that year, the result might have been different. But, either way, it's not the EU's fault. The fault lies with the British constitution, not with the EU. |
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Post by sandypine on Jun 16, 2023 18:19:01 GMT
The Tories were a majority, the other majority you refer to were just those who did not vote Tory and represented a range of disparate parties and views. The idea is to form strong government and get things done. Does not always work but then neither do coalitions. Yes, the idea is strong government. So, to ensure that, a minority rules the majority. The strongest government of all is a dictatorship. I don't see how we disagree. Unless you're saying that's democratic? The largest minority can form a government before all the other minorities who still have a voice in parliament and can hold the government of that largest minority to account. A dictatorship is one whereby there is absolute rule irrespective of any level of representation. I think you are being a bit over dramatic. |
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Post by sandypine on Jun 16, 2023 18:32:27 GMT
And yet when we finally did as you suggest, you have not stopped complaining about it. Yes. The referendum reflected anger at the fact that referendums had not been held on important matters. So what? That only underlines the undemocratic nature of the British constitution. Major should have held a referendum in the 90s. He didn't. That's not the EU's fault. Actually it is, if they are as democratically orientated as they are supposed to be then they may refuse to accept membership unless the electorate agree. It was not that we were removing a British Constitution we were taking on board an EU Membership and eventually a Constitution. It is the lack of referenda in many aspects that has resulted eventually in Brexit. If the electorate had been trusted they may well have agreed to all that Major and teh EU wanted and the case for Brexit weakened. |
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Post by bancroft on Jun 16, 2023 18:33:47 GMT
Just watch the EU disintegrate over the culling of farms, it seems to me the EU is picking on countries to stop mass protest yet it is coming just wait until the French see the writing on the wall.
Gates with his synthetic food is going to fail, he got into vaccines 'to save the world' yet was not interested in getting fresh water to the Africans because there were no patents...... a greedy bxxxxxx and he was friends with Epstein.
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Post by Einhorn on Jun 16, 2023 18:59:42 GMT
Yes, the idea is strong government. So, to ensure that, a minority rules the majority. The strongest government of all is a dictatorship. I don't see how we disagree. Unless you're saying that's democratic? The largest minority can form a government before all the other minorities who still have a voice in parliament and can hold the government of that largest minority to account. A dictatorship is one whereby there is absolute rule irrespective of any level of representation. I think you are being a bit over dramatic. Yes. The largest MINORITY. But in most European countries, minorities are not allowed to rule over the majority. That's just plain undemocratic. In those countries, there would have to be another election or the largest minority would have to join in a coalition with another party so that they make up more than 50%. The UK system is patently undemocratic. That said, it's entirely in keeping with the overall undemocratic nature of the system (unelected judges making laws, more than half of Parliament being unelected, first past the post, etc.). |
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Post by bancroft on Jun 16, 2023 19:01:57 GMT
Who proposes the legislation in the EU?
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Post by Einhorn on Jun 16, 2023 19:02:22 GMT
Just watch the EU disintegrate over the culling of farms, it seems to me the EU is picking on countries to stop mass protest yet it is coming just wait until the French see the writing on the wall. Gates with his synthetic food is going to fail, he got into vaccines 'to save the world' yet was not interested in getting fresh water to the Africans because there were no patents...... a greedy bxxxxxx and he was friends with Epstein. You've been waiting for the EU to disintegrate for a long time. The fact is, Brexit has made that disintegration more unlikely. They look at the mess in the UK, and thank their lucky stars it's not them. The UK is more likely to disintegrate before the EU. |
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Post by Einhorn on Jun 16, 2023 19:06:20 GMT
Who proposes the legislation in the EU? The Treaties. They set out the framework within which legislation may be made. They set very strict limits on what laws may be made. The Commission then draws up legislation to give effect to the treaties wider objectives AFTER consultation with the democratically elected heads of state. By contrast, unelected judges in the UK make laws every working day of the week without any boundaries on what they can do. Moreover, they make laws on things that affect people on a deeper level, things that can have the effect of wiping out the ordinary citizen's life savings. |
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Post by Einhorn on Jun 16, 2023 19:10:08 GMT
Yes. The referendum reflected anger at the fact that referendums had not been held on important matters. So what? That only underlines the undemocratic nature of the British constitution. Major should have held a referendum in the 90s. He didn't. That's not the EU's fault. Actually it is, if they are as democratically orientated as they are supposed to be then they may refuse to accept membership unless the electorate agree. It was not that we were removing a British Constitution we were taking on board an EU Membership and eventually a Constitution. It is the lack of referenda in many aspects that has resulted eventually in Brexit. If the electorate had been trusted they may well have agreed to all that Major and teh EU wanted and the case for Brexit weakened. Exactly. Not all, but a portion, of the voting public voted the way they did in the 2016 referendum because they had not been given a referendum in the 90s. If they had been given a referendum in the 90s, they would not have voted that way. The undemocratic UK constitution did not give them a vote in the 90s, so they made their feelings felt when they voted in 2016. Those voters took their anger out on the EU, when all the blame belonged to the UK constitution. Other EU nations don't have an axe to grind because their national Constitutions made it mandatory for a referendum in their country. The UK is one of the few European countries that doesn't have a democratic Constitution, with the result that the British people weren't given a vote. The problem was always the undemocratic nature of the British system, not that of the EU. |
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