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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2022 15:08:20 GMT
During the Referendum campaign period, it was Tony Blair who said "this referendum is like voting to move home, but without knowing where to".
Not even the most ardent of Brexit voters can possibly claim that we are now in the sunny uplands of outside the European Union, problems are persisting, with the supply of goods, with labour shortages, with Northern Ireland and with many aspects of daily life.
Did voting LEAVE mean to leave not only the EU, but also the Single Market, the Customs Union, the wider European Economic Area ?, a hard Brexit.
Personaly I feel ( as a remainer ) that its too much to ask, that we have another referendum on leaving the European Union. However, we could have a set of questions, which SHOULD HAVE been in the original referendum, but were not.
Would You Like The United Kingdom to Become a Member of The Single Market / the EEA /
It could be pointed out by those of us who would vote YES, that by doing so would solve all the current, persistent issues, including the Northern Ireland problem.
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Post by Pacifico on Oct 28, 2022 15:20:17 GMT
During the Referendum campaign period, it was Tony Blair who said "this referendum is like voting to move home, but without knowing where to". Well at least we got a vote - nobody wanted to ask us whether we agreed with the EU being set up in the first place. |
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Post by jonksy on Oct 28, 2022 16:11:08 GMT
During the Referendum campaign period, it was Tony Blair who said "this referendum is like voting to move home, but without knowing where to". We who did vote leave had to wait 40 odd years to get our say after having to suck it up over being taken into the EUSSR on a blatant lie. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2022 16:21:57 GMT
You insinuate people are allegedly refusing to respect a democratic mandate in future elections and accuse me of "whatifery"?
I did not accuse anyone I just asked the question. "If labour win with starmer ambiguously saying lets make brexit work , and start taking the uk back into the EU by tieing us up to customs unions , ECJ jurisdiction and all the rest , then of course that will be where the trouble starts". This is whatifery, Starmer is not PM, but he has stated his stance and until he reneges on that it is whatifery. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2022 16:31:17 GMT
pacifico >> "Well at least we got a vote - nobody wanted to ask us whether we agreed with the EU being set up in the first place."
The mandate to join the European Community was in fact the 1970 General Election, which was won by Edward Heath, leader of the Conservative Party.
The decision to apply for membership of the European Community was taken by Parliament in 1971
Here is an extract from Edward Heaths speech during that House of Commons debate ....
"Tonight, the world is similarly watching Westminster, waiting to see whether we are going to decide that Western Europe should now move along the path to real unity – or whether the British Parliament, now given the choice, not for the first time but probably for the last time for many years to come, will reject the chance of creating a united Europe"
A continent of 50 neighbouring states, with a long history of rivalry, suspicion, war and turmoil, but with a 20th century vision to unite, to work together, to co-operate, for the good of all.
What fools the British people are - the Brexit decision was democratic, but it was also fueled by lies, and it is the single biggest act of Self Harm ever inflicted upon this country.
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Post by Toreador on Oct 28, 2022 16:36:40 GMT
During the Referendum campaign period, it was Tony Blair who said "this referendum is like voting to move home, but without knowing where to". Not even the most ardent of Brexit voters can possibly claim that we are now in the sunny uplands of outside the European Union, problems are persisting, with the supply of goods, with labour shortages, with Northern Ireland and with many aspects of daily life. Did voting LEAVE mean to leave not only the EU, but also the Single Market, the Customs Union, the wider European Economic Area ?, a hard Brexit. Personaly I feel ( as a remainer ) that its too much to ask, that we have another referendum on leaving the European Union. However, we could have a set of questions, which SHOULD HAVE been in the original referendum, but were not. Would You Like The United Kingdom to Become a Member of The Single Market / the EEA / It could be pointed out by those of us who would vote YES, that by doing so would solve all the current, persistent issues, including the Northern Ireland problem. Blair said on at least one occasion we would have a referendum on the EU. In 2004 Blair reneged on his promise. Just prior to the referendum Cameron said he would enact the result of the referendum. In 1975 Wilson said he would enact the the result of the EEC referendum; the result was to remain and we did. |
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Post by Pacifico on Oct 28, 2022 16:57:28 GMT
pacifico >> "Well at least we got a vote - nobody wanted to ask us whether we agreed with the EU being set up in the first place."The mandate to join the European Community was in fact the 1970 General Election, which was won by Edward Heath, leader of the Conservative Party. The decision to apply for membership of the European Community was taken by Parliament in 1971 Here is an extract from Edward Heaths speech during that House of Commons debate .... "Tonight, the world is similarly watching Westminster, waiting to see whether we are going to decide that Western Europe should now move along the path to real unity – or whether the British Parliament, now given the choice, not for the first time but probably for the last time for many years to come, will reject the chance of creating a united Europe"A continent of 50 neighbouring states, with a long history of rivalry, suspicion, war and turmoil, but with a 20th century vision to unite, to work together, to co-operate, for the good of all. What fools the British people are - the Brexit decision was democratic, but it was also fueled by lies, and it is the single biggest act of Self Harm ever inflicted upon this country. I'd suggest you check what was said when we joined the European Community if you are bothered about lies...  |
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Post by sandypine on Oct 28, 2022 18:35:51 GMT
pacifico >> "Well at least we got a vote - nobody wanted to ask us whether we agreed with the EU being set up in the first place."The mandate to join the European Community was in fact the 1970 General Election, which was won by Edward Heath, leader of the Conservative Party. The decision to apply for membership of the European Community was taken by Parliament in 1971 Here is an extract from Edward Heaths speech during that House of Commons debate .... "Tonight, the world is similarly watching Westminster, waiting to see whether we are going to decide that Western Europe should now move along the path to real unity – or whether the British Parliament, now given the choice, not for the first time but probably for the last time for many years to come, will reject the chance of creating a united Europe"A continent of 50 neighbouring states, with a long history of rivalry, suspicion, war and turmoil, but with a 20th century vision to unite, to work together, to co-operate, for the good of all. What fools the British people are - the Brexit decision was democratic, but it was also fueled by lies, and it is the single biggest act of Self Harm ever inflicted upon this country. If 1970 was the mandate to join then 2019 was very much the mandate to leave. If words are important then Heath's “the full-hearted consent of Parliament and the people” is very important. Joining the EU could be seen as the biggest act of self harm ever inflicted on a country and, and this is very important, a sovereign people. There may be a degree of Cold Turkey to be endured but then that is without doubt better than staying in. The length and degree of the Cold Turkey is very much down to those who wish to Remain by blocking an easy Brexit at each and every turn |
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Post by sandypine on Oct 28, 2022 18:41:48 GMT
pacifico >> "Well at least we got a vote - nobody wanted to ask us whether we agreed with the EU being set up in the first place."The mandate to join the European Community was in fact the 1970 General Election, which was won by Edward Heath, leader of the Conservative Party. The decision to apply for membership of the European Community was taken by Parliament in 1971 Here is an extract from Edward Heaths speech during that House of Commons debate .... "Tonight, the world is similarly watching Westminster, waiting to see whether we are going to decide that Western Europe should now move along the path to real unity – or whether the British Parliament, now given the choice, not for the first time but probably for the last time for many years to come, will reject the chance of creating a united Europe"A continent of 50 neighbouring states, with a long history of rivalry, suspicion, war and turmoil, but with a 20th century vision to unite, to work together, to co-operate, for the good of all. What fools the British people are - the Brexit decision was democratic, but it was also fueled by lies, and it is the single biggest act of Self Harm ever inflicted upon this country. I'd suggest you check what was said when we joined the European Community if you are bothered about lies... Not just lies but Heath introduced a whip for the voting and there was collusion admitted some time afterwards by Labour Europhiles like Williams and Jenkins who ensured sufficient absent MPs defeated the Labour position. Oh yes it has been a merry go round of lying and deceipt and shenanigans |
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Post by andrewbrown on Oct 28, 2022 20:54:20 GMT
We had a vote to leave the EU, but "HOW" wasn't on the ballot paper. We should have had a referendum on "HOW". Democratically, it's still alright to discuss our current relationship and our future relationship. I just got sick of the back biting bitter remoaning that there was on the previous site. If someone wants customs union with the EU (I really fucking don't) but if someone does, it's ok to. If someone wants something akin to the EFTA EEA agreement, it's ok to (that doesn't involve ECJ jurisdiction btw, it has it's own arbitrator/ dispute mediator). If someone wants something akin to the Swiss bilateral relationship, it's ok to. You're right, Starmer was duplicitous, he tried courting leavers and remainers at the same time, an impossible strategy. 60% of Labour constituencies and 70% of Conservative constituencies voted leave in the EU referendum. There weren't enough votes in the remain well to get a party into government but there were enough votes in the leave well, to get the Tories the majority they craved. What we needed in 2019, was a government of national unity committed to honouring the referendum, but asking HOW we leave, rather than IF. It's not healthy to have too much power in the hands of government. Not often I agree with your posts, but here's an exception. How we were going to leave should always have been part of the decision, unfortunately the government decided it would win and there was no plan. |
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Post by Pacifico on Oct 28, 2022 21:28:14 GMT
We had a vote to leave the EU, but "HOW" wasn't on the ballot paper. We should have had a referendum on "HOW". Democratically, it's still alright to discuss our current relationship and our future relationship. I just got sick of the back biting bitter remoaning that there was on the previous site. If someone wants customs union with the EU (I really fucking don't) but if someone does, it's ok to. If someone wants something akin to the EFTA EEA agreement, it's ok to (that doesn't involve ECJ jurisdiction btw, it has it's own arbitrator/ dispute mediator). If someone wants something akin to the Swiss bilateral relationship, it's ok to. You're right, Starmer was duplicitous, he tried courting leavers and remainers at the same time, an impossible strategy. 60% of Labour constituencies and 70% of Conservative constituencies voted leave in the EU referendum. There weren't enough votes in the remain well to get a party into government but there were enough votes in the leave well, to get the Tories the majority they craved. What we needed in 2019, was a government of national unity committed to honouring the referendum, but asking HOW we leave, rather than IF. It's not healthy to have too much power in the hands of government. Not often I agree with your posts, but here's an exception. How we were going to leave should always have been part of the decision, unfortunately the government decided it would win and there was no plan. And how would you have arranged that?. The Government of the time was the only body who could negotiate international treaties and they wished to remain. So please explain who exactly would have negotiated and what their motives would have been. |
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Post by andrewbrown on Oct 28, 2022 21:35:20 GMT
Not the actual negotiations themselves, but whether we should have been in Efta, EEA, bilateral deal etc.
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Post by Pacifico on Oct 28, 2022 21:45:58 GMT
Not the actual negotiations themselves, but whether we should have been in Efta, EEA, bilateral deal etc. Yes - and who would have decided? Lets assume it was Camerons Government (who supported remain) - then they would naturally have chosen the closest possible arrangement with the EU. Do you think that deal would have been acceptable to those who actually wanted to leave? |
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Post by Steve on Oct 28, 2022 22:13:29 GMT
It is very difficult to make any deal with another party especially if the other party did not want too in the first place Well if you divorce a wife saying she's fat and smells it's never likely she'll still do your ironing is it. A key Vote Leave false premise was 'After we Vote Leave, British businesses will trade freely with the EU. ' and they should have known they couldn't deliver and any chance David Davies had of negotiating a decent deal was killed by a fat arse of a foreign secretary poisoning the discussions with idiot 'cake and eat it' boasts and other 'fuck the EU' type statements. So we arrived at late 2018 with May's god awful deal and uber Brexiters thinking 'good this means we can leave with no deal then' No Deal would (and still could) have been a disaster for the UK. Any further referendum on terms of leaving would have to have included the 'think again' option. Even Boris by December 2019 knew he had to get a deal or 80 seat majority or not he'd have been out of office. The Tory back benchers do not tolerate economic hari kari. |
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Post by colbops on Oct 28, 2022 22:38:41 GMT
It is very difficult to make any deal with another party especially if the other party did not want too in the first place Well if you divorce a wife saying she's fat and smells it's never likely she'll still do your ironing is it. That rather depends on whether she's fat and smelly or not. |
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