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Post by see2 on Nov 3, 2022 22:25:00 GMT
People in the UK, live in a Representative Democracy. If you think we live in an "open and accountable DEMOCRACY", you are wrong, but your mistake does help to explain why you are so far off key when it comes to understanding both the UK and the EU. Far from off key. And I don't need you to try and point out the finer points of the EUSSR. 2 out of 10 you must try harder. You really should make an effort to make your post make sense.
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Post by see2 on Nov 3, 2022 22:30:26 GMT
Questions to the EU: __"The Europe Direct Contact Centre is run by the European Commission. We answer any question from the public about the European Union, via phone or email. Our staff includes native speakers of the EU's 24 official languages, as well as Ukrainian and Russian. We can give you an immediate answer to general questions about the EU help you navigate on the webpages published by the EU institutions find more specialised information. If needed, we ask an expert in the European Commission on your behalf give you the contact details for the best sources of further information and advice give you information that is factually correct and updated, according to the standards of public civil service. However, our answers are never legally binding. european-union.europa.eu/contact-eu/write-us/answering-your-questions_enWell let us see how the EU describe their own history and from teh Europa history site we see "How the European Union developed in the 70s, with the first addition of new members, European elections and a regional policy to boost poorer areas." european-union.europa.eu/principles-countries-history/history-eu_enNow I can spot something glaringly wrong with the first part of that statement. Can you. I would not trust the EU, or any part of it, with providing me with facts. It is like saying how the UK developed during the Wars of the Roses. The only answer possible is it did not as it did not exist. EDIT just an aside that centre did not exist either in 1992. It may have existed in some form in teh EC but who knows and if they are equally as truthful who cares. Don't beat around the bush Sandy, if you have a criticism then spell it out.
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Post by Red Rackham on Nov 3, 2022 22:48:39 GMT
Yes it does. It requires absolute clarity with what is intended most especially if that is transferral of elements of sovereignty and most especially if there are differences of opinion on what things mean. Heads could have been gently placed into the sand by the sibilant whispers over the years of the Europhiles who soothed the furrowed brows of concern with insincere blandishments. Questions to the EU: __"The Europe Direct Contact Centre is run by the European Commission. We answer any question from the public about the European Union, via phone or email. Our staff includes native speakers of the EU's 24 official languages, as well as Ukrainian and Russian. We can give you an immediate answer to general questions about the EU help you navigate on the webpages published by the EU institutions find more specialised information. If needed, we ask an expert in the European Commission on your behalf give you the contact details for the best sources of further information and advice give you information that is factually correct and updated, according to the standards of public civil service. However, our answers are never legally binding. european-union.europa.eu/contact-eu/write-us/answering-your-questions_enYou seem to place a lot of faith in the all powerful EU Commission. But the fact is, it operates like a politburo. It is an entirely unelected body governed over by an unelected president. It operates from behind closed doors, is totally hidden from any form of electoral scrutiny, it is responsible for proposing new European laws and for enforcing those laws on democratically elected governments in EU states. What a shining example of democracy. You must be very proud.
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 3, 2022 23:19:37 GMT
Questions to the EU: __"The Europe Direct Contact Centre is run by the European Commission. We answer any question from the public about the European Union, via phone or email. Our staff includes native speakers of the EU's 24 official languages, as well as Ukrainian and Russian. We can give you an immediate answer to general questions about the EU help you navigate on the webpages published by the EU institutions find more specialised information. If needed, we ask an expert in the European Commission on your behalf give you the contact details for the best sources of further information and advice give you information that is factually correct and updated, according to the standards of public civil service. However, our answers are never legally binding. european-union.europa.eu/contact-eu/write-us/answering-your-questions_enYou seem to place a lot of faith in the all powerful EU Commission. But the fact is, it operates like a politburo. It is an entirely unelected body governed over by an unelected president. It operates from behind closed doors, is totally hidden from any form of electoral scrutiny, it is responsible for proposing new European laws and for enforcing those laws on democratically elected governments in EU states. What a shining example of democracy. You must be very proud. Do you understand that different trading standard laws in the different member states across the EU act as a barrier to trade? Do you know that EU members are made wealthier if they replace their national laws with standardised EU-wide laws? That's what the Commission mostly concerns itself with. They draft standard laws and then they have to convince the democratically elected Parliament to make their draft laws into actual laws. If they can't convince Parliament, it doesn't become law. The general public doesn't care about these laws on the whole. Who do you know who has an opinion on the best model for a standardised law of trademarks? It's all about mindset. When the EU introduced a law, remainers were pleased that another obstacle to trade was removed and that the UK would benefit from increased trade. Brexiters, on the other hand, saw it as an unjustified imposition on sovereignty. Well, you can have absolute sovereignty or ever-increasing wealth. You preferred the former.
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Post by Red Rackham on Nov 3, 2022 23:34:53 GMT
You seem to place a lot of faith in the all powerful EU Commission. But the fact is, it operates like a politburo. It is an entirely unelected body governed over by an unelected president. It operates from behind closed doors, is totally hidden from any form of electoral scrutiny, it is responsible for proposing new European laws and for enforcing those laws on democratically elected governments in EU states. What a shining example of democracy. You must be very proud. Do you understand that different trading standard laws in the different member states across the EU act as a barrier to trade? Do you know that EU members are made wealthier if they replace their national laws with a standard EU-wide laws? That's what the Commission mostly concerns itself with. The general public doesn't care about these laws on the whole. Who do you know who has an opinion on the best legal model for a standardised law of trademarks? It's all about mindset. When the EU introduced a law, remainers were pleased that another obstacle to trade was removed and that the UK would benefit from increased trade. Brexiters, on the other hand, saw it as an unjustified imposition on sovereignty. Well, you can absolute sovereignty of ever-increasing wealth. You preferred the former. That [Quoted] is factually incorrect. The EU Commission do not have to convince the EU parliament to accept new laws. The unelected commission prepare and propose new laws, these laws are then sent to the parliament who have the power to recommend amendments, but here's the kicker, the unelected commission are not obliged to accept any amendments. It is entirely up to the unelected commission whether amendments from the parliament are accepted or not. This shows where the real power lies, and it's not with the elected parliament which is like no parliament in the world. It is essentially a facade to give the impression of democracy.
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 3, 2022 23:38:18 GMT
Do you understand that different trading standard laws in the different member states across the EU act as a barrier to trade? Do you know that EU members are made wealthier if they replace their national laws with a standard EU-wide laws? That's what the Commission mostly concerns itself with. The general public doesn't care about these laws on the whole. Who do you know who has an opinion on the best legal model for a standardised law of trademarks? It's all about mindset. When the EU introduced a law, remainers were pleased that another obstacle to trade was removed and that the UK would benefit from increased trade. Brexiters, on the other hand, saw it as an unjustified imposition on sovereignty. Well, you can absolute sovereignty of ever-increasing wealth. You preferred the former. That [Quoted] is factually incorrect. The EU Commission do not have to convince the EU parliament to accept new laws. The unelected commission prepare and propose new laws, these laws are then sent to the parliament who have the power to recommend amendments, but here's the kicker, the unelected commission are not obliged to accept any amendments. It is entirely up to the unelected commission whether amendments from the parliament are accepted or not. This shows where the real power lies, and it's not with the elected parliament which is like no parliament in the world. It is essentially a facade to give the impression of democracy. No, the Commission cannot introduce laws. They have to convince Parliament that their draft laws are appropriate and if Parliament doesn't like them, they reject them. So what if the Parliament can't suggest amendments? If it doesn't like what the Commission is proposing without the amendments it wants, it just rejects the whole thing.
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 3, 2022 23:43:23 GMT
Red, the 'real power' lies with Parliament. It's they and they alone who decide whether it becomes law. The Commission gets absolutely no say.
The EU has been around a long time now, Red. There is a mechanism for the member states and EU citizens to petition for change to the treaties. In all the time the EU has existed, has there ever been one suggestion from a member state or a single citizen's petition that suggests there is any interest at all in changing the relationship between the Parliament and the Commission?
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Post by Red Rackham on Nov 3, 2022 23:44:07 GMT
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 3, 2022 23:47:58 GMT
See what I said above. 1) Parliament and Parliament alone decides whether a Commission proposal becomes law. The Commission has no say. 2) In all the time the EU has existed, not one single member state, a party in opposition in a member state, or a citizen's petition has ever suggested that anyone is unhappy with the relationship between the Commission and Parliament. The only people who have made an issue of this are a tiny handful of Brexiters whose real motive for wanting to leave the EU has nothing at all to do with this.
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Post by steppenwolf on Nov 4, 2022 7:50:50 GMT
Do you understand that different trading standard laws in the different member states across the EU act as a barrier to trade? Do you know that EU members are made wealthier if they replace their national laws with standardised EU-wide laws? Two points: 1. It's obviously perfectly reasonable for countries that trade together to agree to common standards for the goods that they're trading. That's normal. What is NOT normal is for an overarching bureaucracy to determine the standards for ALL products being produced in those countries. That would be like the UK telling the USA that it would have to adopt all our product standards before they can sell us beef. That's what the EU does. If you're an EU member absolutely every manufacturer in the UK has to obey EU regulations regardless of whether they trade with the EU or not. It imposes huge burdens on small companies. 2. Tariff free trade between countries doesn't necessarily make all countries wealthier. It's NOT a panacea. The ideal relationship between two countries is where there is little overlap between the goods that they're trading. If you agree a free trade deal with a country that is a direct competitor with you it can make you a lot poorer. The obvious example is when we joined the "Common Market" (as it then was) and our car companies had to compete with the likes of Germany. Look what happened. We had more car companies than any country in the world and we now have none. That's because they couldn't compete with Germany - which has the benefit of an undervalued currency and access to cheap labour in Hungary etc. As for your points about the rules having to be approved by the EU parliament, it's more complex than that. There are a lot of rules that are approved by the Council, not the Parliament- and some rules are approved by both. It's pretty strange. And the bottom line is that we had so few votes in the Parliament that there has been no occasion in the last 2 decades when we've managed to overturn an EU law proposed by the EU Commission. Our votes in the EU Parliament were useless.
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Post by Bentley on Nov 4, 2022 8:16:15 GMT
So you reply to a post about the years of lies and try to pretend we shouldn't discuss them I replied to this post you wanker. See2..”Ursula von der Leyen Maybe (?) nominated behind closed doors, but her nomination has to be ratified by both the EU Committee (not the Commission) AND the EU Parliament. Such misunderstanding still exists even after all the disputes and debates over many decades, on the EU.” Me..At what point do these processes become undemocratic or at least perceived to be undemocratic? There no misunderstanding except that one can be far remote from a process and still claim that it is Democratic process . YOU..You can make a lot of people perceive something as wrong if you bombard them with lies for ME.. You can make a lot of people perceive something as wrong if you bombard them with lies for long enough. I don’t think the claim that the more remote you are from a decision made by voting , the less democratic the decision You were the one that didn’t realise I answered a post that had nothing to do with years of lies. My problem was that I overestimated you and thought your drivel had something to do with the line of debate that I was following . Don’t blame me for your mistake .
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Post by see2 on Nov 4, 2022 11:09:37 GMT
Questions to the EU: __"The Europe Direct Contact Centre is run by the European Commission. We answer any question from the public about the European Union, via phone or email. Our staff includes native speakers of the EU's 24 official languages, as well as Ukrainian and Russian. We can give you an immediate answer to general questions about the EU help you navigate on the webpages published by the EU institutions find more specialised information. If needed, we ask an expert in the European Commission on your behalf give you the contact details for the best sources of further information and advice give you information that is factually correct and updated, according to the standards of public civil service. However, our answers are never legally binding. european-union.europa.eu/contact-eu/write-us/answering-your-questions_enYou seem to place a lot of faith in the all powerful EU Commission. But the fact is, it operates like a politburo. It is an entirely unelected body governed over by an unelected president. It operates from behind closed doors, is totally hidden from any form of electoral scrutiny, it is responsible for proposing new European laws and for enforcing those laws on democratically elected governments in EU states. What a shining example of democracy. You must be very proud. You are one of the people who post entirely misleading posts about the EU. 1. The commission is not all powerful. They do have a responsibility to see that EU rules, regs and Laws are followed BUT, IT HAS NO POWER TO PASS ANY rules, regs or laws. It can only put forward suggested changes or propositions, which are then scrutinized by the EU Committee (not the Commission) where if areas of the proposition are considered not acceptable it can be returned to the Commission, repeatedly if necessary, before passing it to the EU Parliament for acceptance. IIRC. some propositions have been kicked into the long grass in the past. 2. The commission is made up from head of governments or head of parliaments of EU member states (all elected individuals in their own right). Its members also have to be accepted by the EU Committee and the EU Parliament. 3. The idea that it avoids scrutiny, behind closed doors, is a nonsense exaggeration of normal procedures. That is plainly obvious because everything they put forward is doubly scrutinised by elected bodies. Yes, a shining example of representative democracy, and despite the often very misleading comments and accusations put out against the EU I fully endorse their honesty and their future aims for a United Europe.
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Post by see2 on Nov 4, 2022 11:32:45 GMT
Do you understand that different trading standard laws in the different member states across the EU act as a barrier to trade? Do you know that EU members are made wealthier if they replace their national laws with standardised EU-wide laws? Two points: 1. It's obviously perfectly reasonable for countries that trade together to agree to common standards for the goods that they're trading. That's normal. What is NOT normal is for an overarching bureaucracy to determine the standards for ALL products being produced in those countries. That would be like the UK telling the USA that it would have to adopt all our product standards before they can sell us beef. That's what the EU does. If you're an EU member absolutely every manufacturer in the UK has to obey EU regulations regardless of whether they trade with the EU or not. It imposes huge burdens on small companies. 2. Tariff free trade between countries doesn't necessarily make all countries wealthier. It's NOT a panacea. The ideal relationship between two countries is where there is little overlap between the goods that they're trading. If you agree a free trade deal with a country that is a direct competitor with you it can make you a lot poorer. The obvious example is when we joined the "Common Market" (as it then was) and our car companies had to compete with the likes of Germany. Look what happened. We had more car companies than any country in the world and we now have none. That's because they couldn't compete with Germany - which has the benefit of an undervalued currency and access to cheap labour in Hungary etc. As for your points about the rules having to be approved by the EU parliament, it's more complex than that. There are a lot of rules that are approved by the Council, not the Parliament- and some rules are approved by both. It's pretty strange. And the bottom line is that we had so few votes in the Parliament that there has been no occasion in the last 2 decades when we've managed to overturn an EU law proposed by the EU Commission. Our votes in the EU Parliament were useless. Some insights into the demise of the Uk mass car production, mostly before joining the then Common Market. __"But other car makers have gone despite early successes. Recessions killed many and bundled others into doomed liaisons. Misreadings of the market, the complacency that came with selling sub-standard cars to Britain’s colonies, destabilising government policies, failure to spot the competition and poor management all contributed to the demise of car makers. www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/remembering-britains-failed-car-companies-picture-special#:~:text=But%20what%20annihilated%20great%20chunks%20of,car%20might%20build%20a%20better%20business.&text=But%20what%20annihilated%20great,build%20a%20better%20business.&text=annihilated%20great%20chunks%20of,car%20might%20build%20a
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 4, 2022 11:46:30 GMT
Do you understand that different trading standard laws in the different member states across the EU act as a barrier to trade? Do you know that EU members are made wealthier if they replace their national laws with standardised EU-wide laws? Two points: 1. It's obviously perfectly reasonable for countries that trade together to agree to common standards for the goods that they're trading. That's normal. What is NOT normal is for an overarching bureaucracy to determine the standards for ALL products being produced in those countries. That would be like the UK telling the USA that it would have to adopt all our product standards before they can sell us beef. That's what the EU does. If you're an EU member absolutely every manufacturer in the UK has to obey EU regulations regardless of whether they trade with the EU or not. It imposes huge burdens on small companies. What? They regulate everything that is saleable in the single market. There needs to be common standards. This is an interesting article. It points out how some member states 'gold-plate' EU regulations and then blame the EU for overregulation: mycountryeurope.com/politics/european-union/gold-plating-regulate-blame-brussels/
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 4, 2022 11:50:57 GMT
Do you understand that different trading standard laws in the different member states across the EU act as a barrier to trade? Do you know that EU members are made wealthier if they replace their national laws with standardised EU-wide laws? As for your points about the rules having to be approved by the EU parliament, it's more complex than that. There are a lot of rules that are approved by the Council, not the Parliament- and some rules are approved by both. It's pretty strange. And the bottom line is that we had so few votes in the Parliament that there has been no occasion in the last 2 decades when we've managed to overturn an EU law proposed by the EU Commission. Our votes in the EU Parliament were useless. Wow! You're complaining that the rules have to be approved by two elected bodies rather than just one? What do you mean when you say that there hasn't been an occasion in the last 2 decades when 'we've' managed to overturn an EU law. Was there a united 'British' contingent in the EU parliament? I thought the British contingent had multiple viewpoints, being made up of representatives from different UK political parties.
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