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Post by jonksy on Nov 2, 2022 11:43:24 GMT
There was every need for a referendum. The remainers keep stating that the eu could have been persuaded to change and we could could of led that change that is a total croc. When cameron went to the eu to try and get changes they were not satisfied just to deny camerons request but they took satisfaction in openly humilliating him. I never held a candle for cameron but at least he was a democraticaly elected PM of the UK unlike the knobs who were carrying out the humiliation, All the higher echelon of the eu are nothing more than total failures and are there by their own choosing and not by a democratic process. You've misread the post chain This isn't about the 2016 referendum but whether there should have been a further referendum and my post say after 2019, no. My apologies Steve I thought you were refering to the 2016 referendum. |
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Post by jonksy on Nov 2, 2022 11:50:53 GMT
There was every need for a referendum. The remainers keep stating that the eu could have been persuaded to change and we could could of led that change that is a total croc. When cameron went to the eu to try and get changes they were not satisfied just to deny camerons request but they took satisfaction in openly humilliating him. I never held a candle for cameron but at least he was a democraticaly elected PM of the UK unlike the knobs who were carrying out the humiliation, All the higher echelon of the eu are nothing more than total failures and are there by their own choosing and not by a democratic process. You've misread the post chain This isn't about the 2016 referendum but whether there should have been a further referendum and my post say after 2019, no. My apologies Steve. I thought you were refering 2016. And no I dont think there should have been a further referendum in 2019. If we had of been told the truth in first place on what we were getting ourselves into when we joined I think maybe the thought of yet another referendum could have held some merit. |
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Post by bancroft on Nov 2, 2022 13:40:55 GMT
Nearly all the politicians were quick to say along the lines of, 'move along nothing to see here', until it was getting obvious we were starting to be overran with economic migrants and EU criminals. If the politicians had been open with each treaty advising on both the good and bad impacts we might have put a spanner in the works earlier on yet it is what it is. People need to be wary of confusing economic migrants, illegal migrants and asylum seekers with legal EU Freedom of Movement migrants. Less wary now if they come illegally by boat. |
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Post by see2 on Nov 2, 2022 14:45:15 GMT
People need to be wary of confusing economic migrants, illegal migrants and asylum seekers with legal EU Freedom of Movement migrants. Less wary now if they come illegally by boat. Still no excuse for confusing Illegal migrants with EU FoM migrants. |
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Post by see2 on Nov 2, 2022 14:48:16 GMT
__"The European Council (informally EUCO) is a collegiate body that defines the overall political direction and priorities of the European Union. It is composed of the heads of state or government of the EU member states, the President of the European Council, and the President of the European Commission."__ Total bollocks. Not one of those who make up 400 odd million had a say on choosing the arseholes of Brussels. They were already elected being head of state or head of government in EU member countries. |
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Post by jonksy on Nov 2, 2022 15:04:26 GMT
Total bollocks. Not one of those who make up 400 odd million had a say on choosing the arseholes of Brussels. They were already elected being head of state or head of government in EU member countries. I am not reading your post it is too extreem LOL...They were not elected by the over 4 hundred milliion and neither were they that replaces them now. Von de liar was picked behind closed doors FFS. That is why I correctly name them dictators and their self serving little club the EUSSR. |
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Post by Steve on Nov 2, 2022 19:34:53 GMT
Because it was a success to get the treaty wording to be as the UK wanted. Now I can see that but it is imprecise however there is no indication that ratification was required and that was what the voters were being asked to do. A mandate, I would have thought, would require a degree of clarity as to what was being sought. Nowhere does it mention the bringing into being of the EU. The internet was in its infancy at the time and information for most was obtained from politicians, newspapers, the TV, the libraries and word of mouth. So? It was very clear that if you voted for that manifesto you were voting for a party fully committed to the negotiated Maastricht treaty that changed the EEC to the EU. It was also very clear at the time to those that actually cared enough about EEC issues to keep themselves informed, that the treaty had no legal effect until ratified and that such ratification would be (or not be) by the government after that election. I certainly recall it being discussed in the current affairs programmes of the time. |
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Post by sandypine on Nov 2, 2022 21:37:06 GMT
Now I can see that but it is imprecise however there is no indication that ratification was required and that was what the voters were being asked to do. A mandate, I would have thought, would require a degree of clarity as to what was being sought. Nowhere does it mention the bringing into being of the EU. The internet was in its infancy at the time and information for most was obtained from politicians, newspapers, the TV, the libraries and word of mouth. So? It was very clear that if you voted for that manifesto you were voting for a party fully committed to the negotiated Maastricht treaty that changed the EEC to the EU. It was also very clear at the time to those that actually cared enough about EEC issues to keep themselves informed, that the treaty had no legal effect until ratified and that such ratification would be (or not be) by the government after that election. I certainly recall it being discussed in the current affairs programmes of the time. The question is how was it clear to the voters? Keeping informed about the EEC or the EC was subject largely to the vagaries of the press and the pundits no matter how often it was discussed. The manifesto was a published document that could be perused by the electorate as the statement of the intent of the Tory party and no where in that document did it say that Maastricht had to be ratified and that the EC would become the EU as part of that agreement. |
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Post by Steve on Nov 2, 2022 23:16:46 GMT
No Sandy the point has been was the 1992 election (which was the largest ever electoral vote) an opportunity for the electorate to reject Maastricht and the change to the EU
Well it was and they didn't
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Post by see2 on Nov 3, 2022 14:32:32 GMT
They were already elected being head of state or head of government in EU member countries. I am not reading your post it is too extreem LOL...They were not elected by the over 4 hundred milliion and neither were they that replaces them now. Von de liar was picked behind closed doors FFS. That is why I correctly name them dictators and their self serving little club the EUSSR. Ursula von der Leyen Maybe (?) nominated behind closed doors, but her nomination has to be ratified by both the EU Committee (not the Commission) AND the EU Parliament. Such misunderstanding still exists even after all the disputes and debates over many decades, on the EU. |
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Post by Bentley on Nov 3, 2022 14:40:31 GMT
I am not reading your post it is too extreem LOL...They were not elected by the over 4 hundred milliion and neither were they that replaces them now. Von de liar was picked behind closed doors FFS. That is why I correctly name them dictators and their self serving little club the EUSSR. Ursula von der Leyen Maybe (?) nominated behind closed doors, but her nomination has to be ratified by both the EU Committee (not the Commission) AND the EU Parliament. Such misunderstanding still exists even after all the disputes and debates over many decades, on the EU. At what point do these processes become undemocratic or at least perceived to be undemocratic? There no misunderstanding except that one can be far remote from a process and still claim that it is Democratic process . |
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Post by Steve on Nov 3, 2022 14:50:30 GMT
Ursula von der Leyen Maybe (?) nominated behind closed doors, but her nomination has to be ratified by both the EU Committee (not the Commission) AND the EU Parliament. Such misunderstanding still exists even after all the disputes and debates over many decades, on the EU. At what point do these processes become undemocratic or at least perceived to be undemocratic? There no misunderstanding except that one can be far remote from a process and still claim that it is Democratic process . You can make a lot of people perceive something as wrong if you bombard them with lies for long enough. |
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Post by see2 on Nov 3, 2022 14:52:44 GMT
Ursula von der Leyen Maybe (?) nominated behind closed doors, but her nomination has to be ratified by both the EU Committee (not the Commission) AND the EU Parliament. Such misunderstanding still exists even after all the disputes and debates over many decades, on the EU. At what point do these processes become undemocratic or at least perceived to be undemocratic? There no misunderstanding except that one can be far remote from a process and still claim that it is Democratic process . I suspect that anti-EU propaganda plays a major roll. The false accusation that the EU was run by unelected people (the Commission) persisted for long enough thus spreading the belief that the EU was undemocratic. AFAIA, the EU is, like the UK and the USA, a Representative Democracy. |
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Post by jonksy on Nov 3, 2022 14:58:20 GMT
I am not reading your post it is too extreem LOL...They were not elected by the over 4 hundred milliion and neither were they that replaces them now. Von de liar was picked behind closed doors FFS. That is why I correctly name them dictators and their self serving little club the EUSSR. Ursula von der Leyen Maybe (?) nominated behind closed doors, but her nomination has to be ratified by both the EU Committee (not the Commission) AND the EU Parliament. Such misunderstanding still exists even after all the disputes and debates over many decades, on the EU. And not one of the 400 million got to have a single say on the matter. I tell you what I will strike a deal with you,,,,,you prove that one single citizen of the 400 million who have had the pleasure to get to vote for any of thses unaccountable self serving second rate parasites that make the rules for the masses. And I will stop calling the eu the EUSSR and the arseholes that run this cosy little club Dictators. Hows that? |
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Post by Bentley on Nov 3, 2022 15:08:15 GMT
At what point do these processes become undemocratic or at least perceived to be undemocratic? There no misunderstanding except that one can be far remote from a process and still claim that it is Democratic process . You can make a lot of people perceive something as wrong if you bombard them with lies for long enough. I don’t think the claim that the more remote you are from a decision made by voting , the less democratic the decision , is a lie. |
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