|
|
Post by sheepy on Jun 13, 2023 8:51:46 GMT
I was laughing earlier, Rishi has gone from we must contain AI with a complete U turn into it can be a teacher a war machine and just about anything in between. I wonder how that came about? He got his orders when he was in Washington.. LOL you know it is unanimous, when Starmer says exactly the same thing in different words. |
|
|
|
Post by Orac on Jun 13, 2023 10:05:25 GMT
The only thing that is sustainable is if the vast majority of people look after themselves (or look after each other voluntarily). You cannot build a working, sustainable society based on the idea that everyone has the option of being a kept person who is made comfortable by the work of others. (this is a conservative position) so how is a Centre right Conservative party different to the current conservative party? I think what i have put summarises a top-line difference. The Conservative party have basically relented on society being modelled as a gigantic welfare state / redistribution operation. The ratchet moves relentlessly further in this direction and their is no proper balancing force in the opposite direction. There is no major conservative party in the UK and hasn't been one for a while. (certainly since Blair) A conservative party would (at least) have policies designed to pushed society towards voluntary self reliance (the robust model) and away from the state model. I'm not talking about standing still and waiting, but rather pushing in the opposite direction to the one you favour. |
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on Jun 13, 2023 10:39:41 GMT
so how is a Centre right Conservative party different to the current conservative party? I think what i have put summarises a top-line difference. The Conservative party have basically relented on society being modelled as a gigantic welfare state / redistribution operation. The ratchet moves relentlessly further in this direction and their is no proper balancing force in the opposite direction. There is no major conservative party in the UK and hasn't been one for a while. (certainly since Blair) A conservative party would (at least) have policies designed to pushed society towards voluntary self reliance (the robust model) and away from the state model. I'm not talking about standing still and waiting, but rather pushing in the opposite direction to the one you favour. Interesting. There is certainly a feeling that we have a growing number of people who struggle to cope with even minor adversity. Be interesting to put some meat on the bones and compare it to what we see on the ground. For me the elephant in the room is the ability to earn good money and the soaring cost of housing that keeps to many people balanced on the tipping point with no insulation from recession etc. Do we oldies (I'm 64) remember struggling with our mortgages and forget that house prices were 4 times average income and current ones are 9 times average incomes? Is the reason for the growing reliance on the state the result of a failing economy? |
|
|
|
Post by Dan Dare on Jun 13, 2023 10:49:19 GMT
Don't forget that since you started work there has been an explosion in the size of the labour force due to (a) womens lib i.e the 1975 Sex Discrimination Act and (b) immigration especially since the EU expansion.
Together they can't have failed have to have had a dampening effect on real wages to the extent it is now well nigh impossible for a single-wage household to raise a family as well as buy a house.
|
|
|
|
Post by Orac on Jun 13, 2023 11:36:00 GMT
I think what i have put summarises a top-line difference. The Conservative party have basically relented on society being modelled as a gigantic welfare state / redistribution operation. The ratchet moves relentlessly further in this direction and their is no proper balancing force in the opposite direction. There is no major conservative party in the UK and hasn't been one for a while. (certainly since Blair) A conservative party would (at least) have policies designed to pushed society towards voluntary self reliance (the robust model) and away from the state model. I'm not talking about standing still and waiting, but rather pushing in the opposite direction to the one you favour. Interesting. There is certainly a feeling that we have a growing number of people who struggle to cope with even minor adversity. Be interesting to put some meat on the bones and compare it to what we see on the ground. For me the elephant in the room is the ability to earn good money and the soaring cost of housing that keeps to many people balanced on the tipping point with no insulation from recession etc. Do we oldies (I'm 64) remember struggling with our mortgages and forget that house prices were 4 times average income and current ones are 9 times average incomes? Is the reason for the growing reliance on the state the result of a failing economy? All this is interesting and I could wax out whole essays on the deleterious effects of a high land price economy (what we have). However, it is important to start at 1 and move forward from there. You cannot implement a sustainable society in which being kept comfortable by the work of others is an option open to everyone. The state will tend to gravitate via self interest towards this notion, but it is unworkable. This is one of the key tenets of what i would call western conservatism |
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on Jun 13, 2023 16:38:11 GMT
Don't forget that since you started work there has been an explosion in the size of the labour force due to (a) womens lib i.e the 1975 Sex Discrimination Act and (b) immigration especially since the EU expansion. Together they can't have failed have to have had a dampening effect on real wages to the extent it is now well nigh impossible for a single-wage household to raise a family as well as buy a house. I agree with your second sentence Dan. But I believe the reason for less skilled better paid jobs being available is not competition from women or immigrants but Automation. Not robots, but software. Online banking, cashless society, auto printing, Accountancy software, tax software, auto monitoring equipment, programmable machines of every sort. You can now order a printed sign online that is printed and checked without the need of a human at all. The only human job is delivering them and that will be gone to soon. And every year more well paid jobs go leaving only service industry low paid work providing things people don't need (Discretionary spend) |
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on Jun 13, 2023 16:44:53 GMT
Interesting. There is certainly a feeling that we have a growing number of people who struggle to cope with even minor adversity. Be interesting to put some meat on the bones and compare it to what we see on the ground. For me the elephant in the room is the ability to earn good money and the soaring cost of housing that keeps to many people balanced on the tipping point with no insulation from recession etc. Do we oldies (I'm 64) remember struggling with our mortgages and forget that house prices were 4 times average income and current ones are 9 times average incomes? Is the reason for the growing reliance on the state the result of a failing economy? All this is interesting and I could wax out whole essays on the deleterious effects of a high land price economy (what we have). However, it is important to start at 1 and move forward from there. Fair do's didn't mean to distract. Its a tricky one. Generally it is observed that most people even given sufficient amounts to survive comfortably still work harder to obtain more. And what do we do about the wealth gap. That's being driven by automation. What does happen as more and more of the money goes to the man who could afford the machines in the first place? From your description above it would appear Western conservatism has not moved forward with the times? |
|
|
|
Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jun 13, 2023 17:53:20 GMT
No. But I met a Yank who has to come up with $400 a month to pay for Insulin, so I guess it's all swings and roundabouts. They should cut the crap about the Chinese.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2023 18:57:25 GMT
Don't forget that since you started work there has been an explosion in the size of the labour force due to (a) womens lib i.e the 1975 Sex Discrimination Act and (b) immigration especially since the EU expansion. Together they can't have failed have to have had a dampening effect on real wages to the extent it is now well nigh impossible for a single-wage household to raise a family as well as buy a house. A lot was hidden away by minimum wage which was introduced by those who massively increased immigration. Apparently, it was some sort of New Deal. |
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on Jun 13, 2023 20:04:08 GMT
Don't forget that since you started work there has been an explosion in the size of the labour force due to (a) womens lib i.e the 1975 Sex Discrimination Act and (b) immigration especially since the EU expansion. Together they can't have failed have to have had a dampening effect on real wages to the extent it is now well nigh impossible for a single-wage household to raise a family as well as buy a house. A lot was hidden away by minimum wage which was introduced by those who massively increased immigration. Apparently, it was some sort of New Deal. The minimum wage was a good idea with unforeseen consequences. Instead of guaranteeing a minimum wage it created an expected wage. For instance. A pub looking for a new bar person before the minimum wage might well look to see what other pubs were offering and off a little more. But the minimum wage gave every pub owner the exact amount they needed to pay and they found they could get staff at that rate. Sadly then business competition drove prices down so that they couldn't pay more even if they wanted to. |
|
|
|
Post by Toreador on Jun 14, 2023 7:57:32 GMT
A lot was hidden away by minimum wage which was introduced by those who massively increased immigration. Apparently, it was some sort of New Deal. The minimum wage was a good idea with unforeseen consequences. Instead of guaranteeing a minimum wage it created an expected wage. For instance. A pub looking for a new bar person before the minimum wage might well look to see what other pubs were offering and off a little more. But the minimum wage gave every pub owner the exact amount they needed to pay and they found they could get staff at that rate. Sadly then business competition drove prices down so that they couldn't pay more even if they wanted to. You could just as well have said, "The minimum wage became the maximum wage, as intended". |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2023 8:09:32 GMT
A lot was hidden away by minimum wage which was introduced by those who massively increased immigration. Apparently, it was some sort of New Deal. The minimum wage was a good idea with unforeseen consequences. Instead of guaranteeing a minimum wage it created an expected wage. For instance. A pub looking for a new bar person before the minimum wage might well look to see what other pubs were offering and off a little more. But the minimum wage gave every pub owner the exact amount they needed to pay and they found they could get staff at that rate. Sadly then business competition drove prices down so that they couldn't pay more even if they wanted to. Mass immigration destroys wage growth by adding more competition for jobs. Minimum wage shouldn't have been a thing, and wouldn't have been if the people wasn't shat on with mass immigration for the benefit of corporate greed. Government knew that their mass immigration insanity would lead to very low wages that would have to be countered with subsidies, so minimum wage was introduced to minimise that effect, but it's still an artificial patch to a problem that the same government created.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2023 8:25:16 GMT
The minimum wage was a good idea with unforeseen consequences. Instead of guaranteeing a minimum wage it created an expected wage. For instance. A pub looking for a new bar person before the minimum wage might well look to see what other pubs were offering and off a little more. But the minimum wage gave every pub owner the exact amount they needed to pay and they found they could get staff at that rate. Sadly then business competition drove prices down so that they couldn't pay more even if they wanted to. You could just as well have said, "The minimum wage became the maximum wage, as intended". There's certainly no incentive to increase the workers wage beyond what government tells them is enough. Many Unions were actively supporting the decline, because they're corrupt socialists and only really care about their own power and greed. |
|
|
|
Post by Orac on Jun 14, 2023 8:53:22 GMT
Its a tricky one. Generally it is observed that most people even given sufficient amounts to survive comfortably still work harder to obtain more. No it is not 'generally observed' - What is observed is that society is typically complex, has various layers of enforcement and it takes time for those layers to change through lack of meaning. As an example - Parents and associates will drill into a child's head that they must work hard at school and must get a job because the consequences of not doing so could be significantly negative. Take those consequences away and societal values slide to a new setting Are you sure that, rather than asking about conservatism vs the conservative party, you are not instead trying to pretend that conservatism is inconsistent or doesn't exist or isn't needed? You do realise that, for democracy to be meaningful, there is likely going to be at least one significant party you disagree with? And what do we do about the wealth gap. The conservative notion is to remove barriers and unnecessary regulation, so the poor can compete with the rich. Much of the modern western 'wealth gap' is itself constructed out of government intervention |
|
|
|
Post by Dan Dare on Jun 14, 2023 8:59:59 GMT
Jack Dromey on 'British Jobs for British Workers' when Deputy Secretary-General of Unite; the talking starts about 2 minutes:
|
|
