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Post by Dan Dare on Jun 13, 2023 7:05:30 GMT
I don't recall the state being particularly small when I lived in California. Certainly taxes were not much less when you include state and federal income tax, sales and property tax. The latter could be particularly swingeing if you bought a larger property or even not a particularly large one in an area where there was work to be had.
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Post by zanygame on Jun 13, 2023 7:09:25 GMT
I don't recall the state being particularly small when I lived in California. Certainly taxes were not much less when you include state and federal income tax, sales and property tax. The latter could be particularly swingeing if you bought a larger property or even not a particularly large one in an area where there was work to be had. That's interesting. I have heard before the local state taxes were a large part of the overall tax bill. It raises the question as to why there are no sizeable 1st world countries with low tax rates. |
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Post by walterpaisley on Jun 13, 2023 7:17:17 GMT
Sales Tax can be confusing in America, too, as it varies from state to state. In the last few weeks I'd no sooner got used to paying 7.25% in California, when it dropped to 6% in DC.
(Also, it never appears on the total price of something in a shop - which adds a certain surprise element at checkout. And don't even get me started on the Tipping Culture..)
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Post by Pacifico on Jun 13, 2023 7:19:55 GMT
And smaller State - at the moment around a third of workers in the UK economy work for the State (and growing every year). That means that every year the productive part of the economy has to work harder to support the growing non-productive part. Which always leads to the question of what don't we want. Please don't just say that if we cut the waste we could have it all. OK - I'll give you an easy example. Currently we have more Civil Servants working in the MOD than the total manpower in the Royal Navy, Royal Marines and Royal Air Force combined. At the present rate of growth within 10 years we will have more Civil Servants than we have soldiers in the Army. The UK Armed Forces have been shrinking in size since the fall of the Berlin Wall - yet the unproductive Civil Service keeps expanding.. |
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Post by Pacifico on Jun 13, 2023 7:21:29 GMT
I don't recall the state being particularly small when I lived in California. Certainly taxes were not much less when you include state and federal income tax, sales and property tax. The latter could be particularly swingeing if you bought a larger property or even not a particularly large one in an area where there was work to be had. California (like all Democrat States) is a high tax state. Hence businesses and people are fleeing to places like Texas and Florida with their much lower tax rates. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Jun 13, 2023 7:33:10 GMT
Even fleeing is not necessarily going to bring relief. Moving from California to Oregon say looks appealing on the surface but most people will end up paying more state tax since federal tax is not deductible in OR.
You need to look at the whole picture since state, sales and property taxes are all part of the mix and some states play around with the proportions for political reasons. OR for example has no sales tax while WA right next door has no property tax. So you get people working in Portland but living in Vancouver WA, hoping that the local cops don't notice their car has OR plates.
Go figure, as they say.
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Post by Dan Dare on Jun 13, 2023 7:34:12 GMT
Sales Tax can be confusing in America, too, as it varies from state to state. In the last few weeks I'd no sooner got used to paying 7.25% in California, when it dropped to 6% in DC. (Also, it never appears on the total price of something in a shop - which adds a certain surprise element at checkout. And don't even get me started on the Tipping Culture..) That's one reason why AMZN is so successful. No sales tax on online purchases. |
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Post by Orac on Jun 13, 2023 7:37:36 GMT
And smaller State - at the moment around a third of workers in the UK economy work for the State (and growing every year). That means that every year the productive part of the economy has to work harder to support the growing non-productive part. Which always leads to the question of what don't we want. Please don't just say that if we cut the waste we could have it all. Re your Op - are you arguing against conservatism or asking about it? I don't think the former is going to go anywhere useful - you are a diehard big state advocate and 'progressive' (in the currently used sense) |
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Post by Orac on Jun 13, 2023 8:02:36 GMT
A post by Red Rackham suggesting the Tories had moved to the centre left led me to think about what a centre right Tory would look like. I realise that my ideas of what this might be are not necessarily correct. I imagine a party in favour of low tax and low benefits in which each man and women is supposed to look after themselves with only very few seeming worthy of help. Cutting funding on health without any thought of how we pay for the endless new treatments now available, but with the secret idea that the wealthy can get it privately A two tier system. Anyway that's my impression. Am I wrong. The only thing that is sustainable is if the vast majority of people look after themselves (or look after each other voluntarily). You cannot build a working, sustainable society based on the idea that everyone has the option of being a kept person who is made comfortable by the work of others. (this is a conservative position) |
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Post by zanygame on Jun 13, 2023 8:18:26 GMT
Which always leads to the question of what don't we want. Please don't just say that if we cut the waste we could have it all. OK - I'll give you an easy example. Currently we have more Civil Servants working in the MOD than the total manpower in the Royal Navy, Royal Marines and Royal Air Force combined. At the present rate of growth within 10 years we will have more Civil Servants than we have soldiers in the Army. The UK Armed Forces have been shrinking in size since the fall of the Berlin Wall - yet the unproductive Civil Service keeps expanding.. I have no idea if the increases are necessary and reflect a changing world. How many jobs that were military are now civilian. Are you able to flesh this out a bit. This is Statista's numbers www.statista.com/statistics/283332/united-kingdom-uk-military-personnel-y-on-y/ |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2023 8:30:24 GMT
What does "a changing world" actually mean? It sounds like another ill-thought out catchphrase.
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Post by zanygame on Jun 13, 2023 8:38:33 GMT
What does "a changing world" actually mean? It sounds like another ill-thought out catchphrase. The idea was to make you think without tying it down to very specific items In this case; examples would be that warfare has moved into Cyber attacks. Or the need for a standing army has lessened because of the use of drones, special forces etc. Or that intelligence has a larger role than it used to. Or that Nato membership means the size of military units has shrunk do to combined operations across countries. |
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Post by zanygame on Jun 13, 2023 8:42:34 GMT
A post by Red Rackham suggesting the Tories had moved to the centre left led me to think about what a centre right Tory would look like. I realise that my ideas of what this might be are not necessarily correct. I imagine a party in favour of low tax and low benefits in which each man and women is supposed to look after themselves with only very few seeming worthy of help. Cutting funding on health without any thought of how we pay for the endless new treatments now available, but with the secret idea that the wealthy can get it privately A two tier system. Anyway that's my impression. Am I wrong. The only thing that is sustainable is if the vast majority of people look after themselves (or look after each other voluntarily). You cannot build a working, sustainable society based on the idea that everyone has the option of being a kept person who is made comfortable by the work of others. (this is a conservative position) so how is a Centre right Conservative party different to the current conservative party? Living on benefits is not an easy task in this country already. Would you remove mental health services for anxiety and depression? Would you stop home nursing for the infirm and put that back onto the relatives? Not saying this is wrong just asking for examples. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2023 8:44:22 GMT
What does "a changing world" actually mean? It sounds like another ill-thought out catchphrase. The idea was to make you think without tying it down to very specific items In this case; examples would be that warfare has moved into Cyber attacks. Or the need for a standing army has lessened because of the use of drones, special forces etc. Or that intelligence has a larger role than it used to. Or that Nato membership means the size of military units has shrunk do to combined operations across countries. So basically, it could mean anything or nothing? Today it's for the growing monster big government state and a overbloated public sector, instead of lower taxes. |
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Post by zanygame on Jun 13, 2023 8:45:15 GMT
Which always leads to the question of what don't we want. Please don't just say that if we cut the waste we could have it all. Re your Op - are you arguing against conservatism or asking about it? I don't think the former is going to go anywhere useful - you are a diehard big state advocate and 'progressive' (in the currently used sense) I'm genuinely trying to discover what people would want from a Centre right party. And whether its feasible, The effects it might have on society. |
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