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Post by sheepy on Jun 27, 2023 21:11:29 GMT
It tells you why, the new equipment is more accurate, that the current readings are more accurate as you would expect and still the temperatures are rising. The new equipment is more accurate yet it is being used to compare with temperatures using a rubber or metal bucket dropped overboard and a spirit or mercury thermometer immersed in said bucket. What is clear is that there is a process of 'adjustments' undertaken before the figures are included. There is also a history of trying to account for, and possibly 'correct' away, the 1940 temperature blip. The tangled web is ever present. Personally I couldn't give a flying one, the argument is lost and it is a lot more important that it is drummed in if they actually believe they are correct the UK needs a reliable and sustainable power supply.
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Post by sandypine on Jun 27, 2023 21:15:32 GMT
The new equipment is more accurate yet it is being used to compare with temperatures using a rubber or metal bucket dropped overboard and a spirit or mercury thermometer immersed in said bucket. What is clear is that there is a process of 'adjustments' undertaken before the figures are included. There is also a history of trying to account for, and possibly 'correct' away, the 1940 temperature blip. The tangled web is ever present. That tangled web of odd temperature anomalies that enable the deniers to muddy the water, yes I'm aware of that. But scientists across the globe are more interested in the increases in temperature we see year on year and the known cause. Reasons exist for odd temperature results but the 1940 blip was in the official data from all the official reading points and cannot be explained within the hypothesis that man is directly responsible for global warming through CO2 levels as CO2 increases and the temp falls back even as production worldwide was pumping out CO2 at record rates for war production. The point about a hypothesis is that the data is supposed to confirm that hypothesis not raise questions that cannot be answered within the parameters of the hypothesis.
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Post by Pacifico on Jun 27, 2023 21:28:26 GMT
Am I missing something? The difference between the two data sets is 'estimated' to be 0.03 per decade. That means there must be a level of uncertainty there and since global warming is supposed to be 0.08 per decade on average then what is that uncertainty? This all ties in to the uncertainties within the datasets themselves and all the uncertainties that lie with all the readings and the correction factors applied and the modern use of probes with instantaneous readings and the past use of copper buckets and before that any old bucket. It tells you why, the new equipment is more accurate, that the current readings are more accurate as you would expect and still the temperatures are rising. That is not necessarily true. Take the hottest day on record in the UK, 19th July last year at Coningsby. It is well known that there is an issue with the weather station location at Coningsby (next to an active runway). This never used to be an issue when we used the old mercury thermometers as they were slow to respond, but now they use electronic thermometers that respond almost immediately to changes in temp. So on the day the record was set the temp suddenly jumped to the new record and then just as fast fell back - now what could have caused a thermometer next to an active runway record a spike in temperature?. So yes, we do have new, more accurate equipment - does that necessarily give us an accurate reading though?
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Post by zanygame on Jun 27, 2023 21:37:34 GMT
The new equipment is more accurate yet it is being used to compare with temperatures using a rubber or metal bucket dropped overboard and a spirit or mercury thermometer immersed in said bucket. What is clear is that there is a process of 'adjustments' undertaken before the figures are included. There is also a history of trying to account for, and possibly 'correct' away, the 1940 temperature blip. The tangled web is ever present. Personally I couldn't give a flying one, the argument is lost and it is a lot more important that it is drummed in if they actually believe they are correct the UK needs a reliable and sustainable power supply. Yes. I think renewable energy is not just about climate change but about no longer relying on unstable countries that have gas and oil. If it weren't for climate change we might still have enough gas of our own to last us a while, though it would be expensive to get at. But climate change is part of the issue so we need a mix of Hydro, Nuclear, Bio, renewables and interconnectors to get a stable supply.
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Post by zanygame on Jun 27, 2023 21:55:20 GMT
That tangled web of odd temperature anomalies that enable the deniers to muddy the water, yes I'm aware of that. But scientists across the globe are more interested in the increases in temperature we see year on year and the known cause. Reasons exist for odd temperature results but the 1940 blip was in the official data from all the official reading points and cannot be explained within the hypothesis that man is directly responsible for global warming through CO2 levels as CO2 increases and the temp falls back even as production worldwide was pumping out CO2 at record rates for war production. The point about a hypothesis is that the data is supposed to confirm that hypothesis not raise questions that cannot be answered within the parameters of the hypothesis. Average global temperatures have steadily risen during the 20th century – the graph of increasing temperature is an image frequently used to illustrate man-made climate change. But the graph does not climb steadily: a number of dips and rises occur over the century. One of these, late in 1945, is more pronounced than the others. The cause of the 1945 dip has so far remained a mystery, something highlighted by people who doubt that climate change is caused by human fossil-fuel burning. They say it is proof that burning fossil fuels cannot explain changes in the climate during the 20th century, given that fossil fuels were being burnt throughout. That objection may be laid to rest with a study published today in Nature. According to David Thompson of Colorado State University, US, and colleagues it is all down to buckets and human error. The researchers took a detailed look at the international temperature dataset used by most contemporary climate studies. They first filtered out the effects of natural climate events which are known to cause variations in temperature, such as El Niño events. In the filtered temperature record, dips were even more pronounced. Each one corresponded to a large volcanic eruption, except for the largest, in 1945. Volcanic eruptions spew large amounts of gases and particles into the atmosphere which block solar radiation and therefore cool the planet. Human “error” The global temperature graph is a combination of temperatures taken on land and at sea. When the researchers looked at the land measurements only they saw no dip in 1945. Records taken at sea, however, do show the dip. This suggests that it may be an artefact of how such measurements were taken during the second world war. Prior to the war, UK and US fleets had contributed roughly equally to the global temperature record. From 1942 to 1945, UK ships, previously an important gatherer of sea water temperatures, were mobilised on the front and contributed just 5% of measurements. Measurements taken from US ships made up 80%. The key, then, is how each nation took its measurements. UK ships tended to throw a bucket overboard and lift it on deck to take the water’s temperature. US ships by and large would sample water drawn into the engine room before it was used to cool the machinery.
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Post by zanygame on Jun 27, 2023 22:03:57 GMT
It tells you why, the new equipment is more accurate, that the current readings are more accurate as you would expect and still the temperatures are rising. That is not necessarily true. Take the hottest day on record in the UK, 19th July last year at Coningsby. It is well known that there is an issue with the weather station location at Coningsby (next to an active runway). This never used to be an issue when we used the old mercury thermometers as they were slow to respond, but now they use electronic thermometers that respond almost immediately to changes in temp. So on the day the record was set the temp suddenly jumped to the new record and then just as fast fell back - now what could have caused a thermometer next to an active runway record a spike in temperature?. So yes, we do have new, more accurate equipment - does that necessarily give us an accurate reading though? That's an very interesting aside. But ofcourse it was a one off anomaly rather than persistent inaccuracy.
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Post by steppenwolf on Jun 28, 2023 5:52:27 GMT
It's a pity that Zany keeps on repeating figures that are not only wrong but irrelevant. Even if 100% of scientists thought that man was the primary driver of "climate change", that would prove nothing. The bottom line is that the models that are based on the man-made CO2 theory don't work. In science that's all that matters - opinions are irrelevant. The theory doesn't work. And these "scientists" are running these programs to predict the temperature of the planet for many decades in the future, when they can't even predict what will happen tomorrow. Since the programs are based on the hypothesis of CO2 caused global warming it's fairly obvious that they will predict more warming, as CO2 will continue to rise. But that hypothesis has already been proved wrong. So what they're doing is pointless. CO2 is known to be a greenhouse gas. That is a scientific fact. CO2 also causes cooling via photosynthesis. That is a scientific fact. That's why rural areas are significantly cooler than urban areas (up to 5C cooler).
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Post by thomas on Jun 28, 2023 5:58:27 GMT
so dumping the set date for policy enactment is fine , as long as they continue to dangle carrots for the forseeable future?
I bet you believed sir keir starmer and see 2 when they told you they were going to make brexit work as well.
You can see why politicians are despised , and why those selfsame politicians despise much of the electorate.
A Target is something people aim at, or that people aim for, there is nothing sacrosanct about a target. If circumstances change and a target is deemed to be no longer achievable then the target has to change. If you want to insult me you would need to able to post some reality, not the opinionated nonsense posted above. I don't know who the people are that influence your opinions, but I seriously suggest you seek some better informed people to mix with. talk about poorly attemting to argue semantics.Not to mention labour party hypocrisy.
When the swedes "abandon" green targets , labour supporters see2 tells us this...
Yet last year , when tory leadership rivals were talking about allowing the uk a longer time to achieve green targets than the commited target date , Labours Ed Milliband tried to make political point scoring out of it by screaming the tories were running away from pledges made.
So when the swedes do it , labour and their dim witted supporters defend them. When the tories attempt to do it........labour and thier dim witted suporters attack them.
One of the reasons you are a figure of ridicule on this forum isnt just because you arent the sharpest tool in the box. Its also because you and your dim witted party cant even get your poorly made points across on a consistent basis.
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Post by thomas on Jun 28, 2023 6:08:43 GMT
Just checked this was still in the mind zone. Sigh. I know. The naysayers have nothing and are not showcasing much in the way of intelligence. I hope your scattergun generalisation isnt aimed at me steve.
Intelligence is keeping an open mind and evaluating debate and fact as it comes. Not dismissing everything that opposes your view while screaming heretic at those who dont share your political dogmatism.
Climate change is happening. The debate is about wether its natural or man made , what should be done about it and what can be done about it.
The whole climate argument is beginning to resemble the covid debate of recent years. Where we had one goup of people claiming the evidence was all on thier side (it wasnt) and another group being labelled as heretics for not jumping on the bandwagon.
Im an amateur weather enthusiast who is a member of numerous weather forums , with people posting who have far more knowledge of the cliamte globally than you or i. There isnt a consensus among them , with argument raging back and forth , so the idea people need to shut up and do as they are told is just the ususal labour party group thinking that normally switches off the general public.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2023 6:56:28 GMT
CO2 is known to be a greenhouse gas. That is a scientific fact. CO2 also causes cooling via photosynthesis. That is a scientific fact. That's why rural areas are significantly cooler than urban areas (up to 5C cooler). Photosynthesis removes CO2 from the atmosphere which is why planting trees is seen as a good thing by climatologists. But the effects tend to be circulated around the atmosphere as a whole and not localised. That urban areas can be hotter is due to tarmac, brick and concrete absorbing heat much more readily than tree , plants, and grass. So what you have stated is not actually scienticic fact at all.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2023 7:08:06 GMT
I know. The naysayers have nothing and are not showcasing much in the way of intelligence. I hope your scattergun generalisation isnt aimed at me steve.
Intelligence is keeping an open mind and evaluating debate and fact as it comes. Not dismissing everything that opposes your view while screaming heretic at those who dont share your political dogmatism.
Climate change is happening. The debate is about wether its natural or man made , what should be done about it and what can be done about it.
The whole climate argument is beginning to resemble the covid debate of recent years. Where we had one goup of people claiming the evidence was all on thier side (it wasnt) and another group being labelled as heretics for not jumping on the bandwagon.
Im an amateur weather enthusiast who is a member of numerous weather forums , with people posting who have far more knowledge of the cliamte globally than you or i. There isnt a consensus among them , with argument raging back and forth , so the idea people need to shut up and do as they are told is just the ususal labour party group thinking that normally switches off the general public.
I wasn't aiming my response at you no. But that man made global warming is a real phenomenon is taken as proven by most climate scientists. What this is likely to mean if allowed to continue is where the differences come in because we are then into the realm of scientific prediction rather than demonstrable facts. But proven facts include a doubling of CO2 in the atmosphere since pre-industrial times. A proven fact is that CO2 is a greenhouse gas and the more of it there is in an atmosphere the warmer it will be. And a proven fact is that natural production of CO2 in this period has not markedly increased but man made production of it has rocketed. Therefore the CO2 that is causing the warming is being put there by us. Ie the warming is man made. No truly reputable climate scientist even begins to reject these basic facts. To do so requires some measure of scientific evidence, with the full expectation that any such source will be looked into by those of us who are aware of the basic science as I have outlined it, to see what the evidence is and how reliable the source is, and what other climatologists have to say about it. But at least any such debate will revolve around the science.
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Post by zanygame on Jun 28, 2023 7:08:31 GMT
CO2 is known to be a greenhouse gas. That is a scientific fact. CO2 also causes cooling via photosynthesis. That is a scientific fact. That's why rural areas are significantly cooler than urban areas (up to 5C cooler). No it doesn't. "Plants consume carbon dioxide—a significant greenhouse gas—in the process of photosynthesis. The reduction of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere has an indirect cooling effect."
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Post by sheepy on Jun 28, 2023 7:10:43 GMT
CO2 also causes cooling via photosynthesis. That is a scientific fact. That's why rural areas are significantly cooler than urban areas (up to 5C cooler). No it doesn't. "Plants consume carbon dioxide—a significant greenhouse gas—in the process of photosynthesis. The reduction of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere has an indirect cooling effect." So it does have a cooling effect then Einstein.
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Post by zanygame on Jun 28, 2023 7:19:43 GMT
No it doesn't. "Plants consume carbon dioxide—a significant greenhouse gas—in the process of photosynthesis. The reduction of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere has an indirect cooling effect." So it does have a cooling effect then Einstein. Indirectly by reducing the amount of Co2 in the atmosphere, but then we already new reducing Co2 in the atmosphere reduces global warming didn't we.
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Post by sheepy on Jun 28, 2023 7:21:42 GMT
So it does have a cooling effect then Einstein. Indirectly by reducing the amount of Co2 in the atmosphere, but then we already new reducing Co2 in the atmosphere reduces global warming didn't we. So why are you arguing with yourself?
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