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Post by Pacifico on May 27, 2023 17:14:52 GMT
If you are operating on a business model that can only afford to pay wage levels that require in-work welfare to be survivable then I don't think that is a business we really need. That true? So if all the coffee shops, pubs, hotels, etc closed down, that wouldn't cost the government any more money in benefits. Or do you envisage the great British famine? But apparently they are staffed by migrants - who presumably wouldn't come if there were no jobs. Face it - we have tried the low pay, low skill economic model you advocate for the past 40 years and it has not led to economic success. time to try something different.
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Post by zanygame on May 27, 2023 17:41:45 GMT
I can. I absolutely agree that farmers used migrant labour rather than automation. Of course the automation you allude to is a relatively recent thing. Shape colour ripeness recognition is still in its infancy. Automated ploughing seeding etc was less labour intensive because of giant tractors and combined harvesters. And ofcourse the migrants that were stealing our jobs left and turns out we didn't want those jobs. People like yourself said put up pay but the problem with that is fruit grows just as well in Spain and Poland as it does here, so the cheap labour was very much part of the equation. What I tend to find in any of these conversations is that people want the problems to be black and white and the answers simple. Sadly I find myself explaining time and again that its not like that. You're having a laugh ZG, I'm not talking about robotics or AI. Automated farming is not a 'relatively' recent development (Depending how far you're going back I suppose) Automation in agriculture started in the 1960's and was widely available in the 1980's. But it was a lot more expensive than cheap immigrant labour. Strawberry picking machines, for example, have been around for decades. But at around £250,000 for one machine, many farmers decided to stick to cheap immigrant labour. Show me a picture of this decades old strawberry picking machine. How did it know which ones to pick? www.wired.com/story/elusive-hunt-robot-pick-ripe-strawberry/TEN YEARS AGO, a company called Agrobot demonstrated a strawberry-harvesting robot in a field in Davis, California. Today, Agrobot’s strawberry picker remains a prototype. The long wait underscores the challenge for any berry-picking robot: Identify a berry that is ripe enough to pick, grasp it firmly but without damaging the fruit, and pull hard enough to separate it from the plant without harming the plant. You can go back to the steam engine if you want, agriculture has been mechanised constantly since the invention of the wheel. That is why farms have a tenth the workforce of yesteryear. But the migrants picking fruit are doing one of the few jobs that machines cannot yet do.
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Post by zanygame on May 27, 2023 17:56:26 GMT
That true? So if all the coffee shops, pubs, hotels, etc closed down, that wouldn't cost the government any more money in benefits. Or do you envisage the great British famine? But apparently they are staffed by migrants - who presumably wouldn't come if there were no jobs. Face it - we have tried the low pay, low skill economic model you advocate for the past 40 years and it has not led to economic success. time to try something different. How did you jump to that conclusion? They are staffed by ordinary people who get pay plus in work benefits. As for something new? What's that then? What is going to bring all those semi skilled jobs back? Perhaps we should ban AI and automation. Join the luddite party. At the moment more and more money is going to fewer and fewer people. On this same thread Red Rackham is arguing that farmers automate even more. How do you get them to only automate immigrant jobs? In any case the real automation was not big machines, it was internet banking and cashless society. Its parking apps and self service shopping. With every advance another load of jobs go. Want to be a lab assistant, nope, a machine does that. Xray assistant at a dentist, nope its all computed, the dose, patient history etc automated. Thousands and thousands of jobs gone forever. But guess what, all that work is still being done and still being paid for, so who's getting all the money?
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Post by Pacifico on May 27, 2023 21:31:43 GMT
But apparently they are staffed by migrants - who presumably wouldn't come if there were no jobs. Face it - we have tried the low pay, low skill economic model you advocate for the past 40 years and it has not led to economic success. time to try something different. How did you jump to that conclusion? Falling productivity levels. After following your recipe for 4 decades we now have the lowest productivity in Europe of the major economies. Which is hardly surprising as basing an economy on the importation of cheap labour and low wages is obviously never going to improve productivity. What are you talking about? - the employment rate is almost at an all time high. The jobs are there, just at the low wages which you have been advocating.
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Post by zanygame on May 28, 2023 7:51:59 GMT
How did you jump to that conclusion? Apologies my question above was referring to your claim "But apparently they are staffed by migrants - who presumably wouldn't come if there were no jobs."
So your assumption of my recipe which is wrong and not the reason our productivity is lower than Europe. Who also have similar or higher immigration. Do try to keep up, I have no desire to dance round and round with you. I was talking about the better paid skilled and semi skilled jobs, hence the entire conversation about low paid low skilled service industry jobs being the only ones available to a great many people. And stop your stupid veiled insults. I am not advocating low wages, I was telling you the reason for their existence.
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Post by Dan Dare on May 28, 2023 9:02:43 GMT
Re mechanical harvesting. In France the grape harvest is almost entirely mechanised, except for a very few regions like Champagne that don't allow it and some of the snootier chateaux in Bordeaux and Burgundy.
This process has been aided and abetted by the dastardly unelected dictators in Brussels who have supported the acquisition of such machines by wine co-ops across the continent.
It's also had the beneficial side-effect of creating a new industry. The Braud company (now owned by Fiat) has been making self-propelled grape harvesting machines since the 1980s and is now the largest manufacturer.
Perhaps UK farmers ought to be lobbying the government to do what the EU has done and invest in manufacturing capacity for such machinery in the UK, rather than increasing the number of seasonal worker visas? That would have the double benefit of curtailing the growth of migrant labour while creating high-paying skilled jobs at home.
Actually we could include farm machinery in general in the very long list of things that the UK doesn't produce anymore.
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Post by zanygame on May 28, 2023 15:46:28 GMT
Re mechanical harvesting. In France the grape harvest is almost entirely mechanised, except for a very few regions like Champagne that don't allow it and some of the snootier chateaux in Bordeaux and Burgundy. This process has been aided and abetted by the dastardly unelected dictators in Brussels who have supported the acquisition of such machines by wine co-ops across the continent. It's also had the beneficial side-effect of creating a new industry. The Braud company (now owned by Fiat) has been making self-propelled grape harvesting machines since the 1980s and is now the largest manufacturer. Perhaps UK farmers ought to be lobbying the government to do what the EU has done and invest in manufacturing capacity for such machinery in the UK, rather than increasing the number of seasonal worker visas? That would have the double benefit of curtailing the growth of migrant labour while creating high-paying skilled jobs at home. Actually we could include farm machinery in general in the very long list of things that the UK doesn't produce anymore. Very good post Dan. A couple more seasons of migrant workers while we get things sorted (so we don't lose those crops altogether) and then fully mechanised apple and pear picking machines shared between farms to spread the initial costs. Our local fruit farm has already plough up hundreds of acres of orchard do to the cost of picking. Such a shame as they made for wonderful walking and were part of England green and pleasant land.
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