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Post by Red Rackham on May 26, 2023 17:18:04 GMT
ZG first and foremost prison is designed to be a punishment. If it acts as a deterrent as well fine, all the better. But the purpose of prison is to remove people from society who have committed crimes. Prison is quite obviously not designed to deter criminals from committing crime, if that were the case then prisons would be empty. Most people do not want to go to prison and it acts as a deterrent because of that. Talk to anyone who's been in prison and they will tell you its hideous. Not the regime, but the constant fear and the missing out on all the things your family are doing. So why risk getting caught and going to prison? You think its because you are black? And immigrant? I think its because you wanted some money aged 14, your mum and dad didn't have any and the guy in the Range Rover with the bling said he'd pay you a tenner to deliver some drugs for him. Simple, easy money. Then you got mugged (by his mates) and he said you owed him two grand for the drugs and he would rape your mum in front of you if you didn't work to repay him. Go to the police? but you've been bought up knowing the Met are racist bastards who would sell you out are are probably on the take themselves. So what do you do? I say, but for the grace of god, there go I. You say they are Black immigrants and therefore evil. Guess I am a leftie snowflake. You're delving into the realms of fantasy. You claim... " Most people do not want to go to prison and it acts as a deterrent because of that" ZG, no one 'wants' to go to prison. But the fact that 81,706 criminals are currently in prison would suggest it is not as you claim, a deterrent. |
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Post by zanygame on May 26, 2023 17:25:47 GMT
Most people do not want to go to prison and it acts as a deterrent because of that. Talk to anyone who's been in prison and they will tell you its hideous. Not the regime, but the constant fear and the missing out on all the things your family are doing. So why risk getting caught and going to prison? You think its because you are black? And immigrant? I think its because you wanted some money aged 14, your mum and dad didn't have any and the guy in the Range Rover with the bling said he'd pay you a tenner to deliver some drugs for him. Simple, easy money. Then you got mugged (by his mates) and he said you owed him two grand for the drugs and he would rape your mum in front of you if you didn't work to repay him. Go to the police? but you've been bought up knowing the Met are racist bastards who would sell you out are are probably on the take themselves. So what do you do? I say, but for the grace of god, there go I. You say they are Black immigrants and therefore evil. Guess I am a leftie snowflake. You're delving into the realms of fantasy. You claim... " Most people do not want to go to prison and it acts as a deterrent because of that" ZG, no one 'wants' to go to prison. But the fact that 81,706 criminals are currently in prison would suggest it is not as you claim, a deterrent. I gave you an example, you ignored it. I don't think that's a conversation, do you. |
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Post by Pacifico on May 26, 2023 17:28:21 GMT
ZG, that is the response I expect from an outraged lefty, you're not an outraged lefty, are you? Are you suggesting that if prison does not reduce crime we should not have prisons? Prison is not designed to reduce crime. Prison is a punishment for those who commit crime. Of course prison is designed to reduce crime. Punishment is always about discouraging bad behaviour. But the thing causing the climb in crime is the massive bloom in illegal drugs. In part this is because so many young people see no future beyond low paid short hours jobs.
This is multiplied in poorer areas. Why? because business does not want to open in deprived areas, so jobs don't go there. Am I an outraged leftie, I don't think so, but if it makes you happy to box me up. Sa la vie. After 40 years of EU membership with business taking advantage and shipping in cheap labour? - say it isn't so..  |
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Post by zanygame on May 26, 2023 19:23:21 GMT
Of course prison is designed to reduce crime. Punishment is always about discouraging bad behaviour. But the thing causing the climb in crime is the massive bloom in illegal drugs. In part this is because so many young people see no future beyond low paid short hours jobs.
This is multiplied in poorer areas. Why? because business does not want to open in deprived areas, so jobs don't go there. Am I an outraged leftie, I don't think so, but if it makes you happy to box me up. Sa la vie. After 40 years of EU membership with business taking advantage and shipping in cheap labour? - say it isn't so.. It isn't so. It has nothing to do with EU membership or FoM. If it was then we'd be in those sunlight uplands by now. But we are not talking about that here, we are talking about the causes of crime, so the why's of low paid jobs are for a different thread. |
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Post by Pacifico on May 26, 2023 21:39:08 GMT
After 40 years of EU membership with business taking advantage and shipping in cheap labour? - say it isn't so.. It isn't so. It has nothing to do with EU membership or FoM. If it was then we'd be in those sunlight uplands by now. But we are not talking about that here, we are talking about the causes of crime, so the why's of low paid jobs are for a different thread. Reduce the amount of available workers and wages rise - it's not rocket science. Therefore if you are claiming that crime is a result of low wages then the logical stance is to support restrictions on immigration. |
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Post by zanygame on May 26, 2023 21:59:05 GMT
It isn't so. It has nothing to do with EU membership or FoM. If it was then we'd be in those sunlight uplands by now. But we are not talking about that here, we are talking about the causes of crime, so the why's of low paid jobs are for a different thread. Reduce the amount of available workers and wages rise - it's not rocket science. Therefore if you are claiming that crime is a result of low wages then the logical stance is to support restrictions on immigration. Its not rocket science in your world, but its more complicated in the real one. Many of the jobs that are now available cannot demand a higher wage, so causing staff shortages will just mean they disappear. All those pubs and restaurants closing, tells nothing in your simple world. |
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Post by Pacifico on May 27, 2023 7:04:31 GMT
Reduce the amount of available workers and wages rise - it's not rocket science. Therefore if you are claiming that crime is a result of low wages then the logical stance is to support restrictions on immigration. Its not rocket science in your world, but its more complicated in the real one. Many of the jobs that are now available cannot demand a higher wage, so causing staff shortages will just mean they disappear. All those pubs and restaurants closing, tells nothing in your simple world. If you are operating on a business model that can only afford to pay wage levels that require in-work welfare to be survivable then I don't think that is a business we really need. |
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Post by Dan Dare on May 27, 2023 8:01:54 GMT
But that's the economic model successive British governments have followed since at least the 1960s - a low skill, low wage, low productivity workforce, an outsized service sector, a bloated public sector and a reliance on financial services and real estate at the expense of innovation and higher-margin manufacturing.
The UK has more lawyers per capita than any country except the USA and fewer engineers than any G20 country.
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Post by zanygame on May 27, 2023 12:23:59 GMT
Its not rocket science in your world, but its more complicated in the real one. Many of the jobs that are now available cannot demand a higher wage, so causing staff shortages will just mean they disappear. All those pubs and restaurants closing, tells nothing in your simple world. If you are operating on a business model that can only afford to pay wage levels that require in-work welfare to be survivable then I don't think that is a business we really need. That true? So if all the coffee shops, pubs, hotels, etc closed down, that wouldn't cost the government any more money in benefits. Or do you envisage the great British famine? |
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Post by zanygame on May 27, 2023 12:28:30 GMT
But that's the economic model successive British governments have followed since at least the 1960s - a low skill, low wage, low productivity workforce, an outsized service sector, a bloated public sector and a reliance on financial services and real estate at the expense of innovation and higher-margin manufacturing. The UK has more lawyers per capita than any country except the USA and fewer engineers than any G20 country. Unfortunately that dice is cast. Our speciality is financial services and since we left the EU that is also shrinking. Seems to me that unless someone tackles the wealth gap bought about by automation and we embrace in work welfare the re-share some on the money, then our future model is India. |
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Post by Red Rackham on May 27, 2023 14:58:47 GMT
But that's the economic model successive British governments have followed since at least the 1960s - a low skill, low wage, low productivity workforce, an outsized service sector, a bloated public sector and a reliance on financial services and real estate at the expense of innovation and higher-margin manufacturing. The UK has more lawyers per capita than any country except the USA and fewer engineers than any G20 country. Unfortunately that dice is cast. Our speciality is financial services and since we left the EU that is also shrinking. Seems to me that unless someone tackles the wealth gap bought about by automation and we embrace in work welfare the re-share some on the money, then our future model is India. |
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Post by zanygame on May 27, 2023 15:11:12 GMT
Unfortunately that dice is cast. Our speciality is financial services and since we left the EU that is also shrinking. Seems to me that unless someone tackles the wealth gap bought about by automation and we embrace in work welfare the re-share some on the money, then our future model is India. I can. I absolutely agree that farmers used migrant labour rather than automation. Of course the automation you allude to is a relatively recent thing. Shape colour ripeness recognition is still in its infancy. Automated ploughing seeding etc was less labour intensive because of giant tractors and combined harvesters. And ofcourse the migrants that were stealing our jobs left and turns out we didn't want those jobs. People like yourself said put up pay but the problem with that is fruit grows just as well in Spain and Poland as it does here, so the cheap labour was very much part of the equation. What I tend to find in any of these conversations is that people want the problems to be black and white and the answers simple. Sadly I find myself explaining time and again that its not like that. |
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Post by Hutchyns on May 27, 2023 15:37:41 GMT
zanygame
Given the number of legal + illegal new arrivals that will continue to head for these shores for the foreseeable future, it'll be the orchards as well as the greenbelt that Sir Keir or Rishi will need be concreting over. Grow the fruit in the locations where they get more sunshine.
Problems being set out in black and white terms with a relatively simple (to understand) solution, is an increasing necessity if we want to stick with universal suffrage. If plans are afoot to give 16 year olds the vote (has that already happened in Wales & Scotland ?) their attention span will have to be catered for, along with their mostly non-existent appetite for the finer points of complex economic problems. An increasing number of the electorate for whom English isn't their first language, plus plans already on the drawing board for foreigners to vote in British elections ...... ever greater simplification will be required unless we intend changing the system.
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Post by zanygame on May 27, 2023 16:27:28 GMT
zanygame Given the number of legal + illegal new arrivals that will continue to head for these shores for the foreseeable future, it'll be the orchards as well as the greenbelt that Sir Keir or Rishi will need be concreting over. Grow the fruit in the locations where they get more sunlight. Problems being set out in black and white terms with a relatively simple (to understand) solution, is an increasing necessity if we want to stick with universal suffrage. If plans are afoot to give 16 year olds the vote (has that already happened in Wales & Scotland ?) their attention span will have to be catered for, along with their mostly non-existent appetite for the finer points of complex economic problems. An increasing number of the electorate for whom English isn't their first language, plus plans already on the drawing board for foreigners to vote in British elections ...... ever greater simplification will be required unless we intend changing the system. I believe Sir Kier was referring to catching up on the enormous backlog of asylum claims which would temporarily increase the number of immigrants. They are already here. |
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Post by Red Rackham on May 27, 2023 16:29:22 GMT
Oddly enough farmers are being blamed for not investing in automation because over the past 20 years migrant labour was cheaper. You cant have it both ways ZG. I can. I absolutely agree that farmers used migrant labour rather than automation. Of course the automation you allude to is a relatively recent thing. Shape colour ripeness recognition is still in its infancy. Automated ploughing seeding etc was less labour intensive because of giant tractors and combined harvesters. And ofcourse the migrants that were stealing our jobs left and turns out we didn't want those jobs. People like yourself said put up pay but the problem with that is fruit grows just as well in Spain and Poland as it does here, so the cheap labour was very much part of the equation. What I tend to find in any of these conversations is that people want the problems to be black and white and the answers simple. Sadly I find myself explaining time and again that its not like that. You're having a laugh ZG, I'm not talking about robotics or AI. Automated farming is not a 'relatively' recent development (Depending how far you're going back I suppose) Automation in agriculture started in the 1960's and was widely available in the 1980's. But it was a lot more expensive than cheap immigrant labour. Strawberry picking machines, for example, have been around for decades. But at around £250,000 for one machine, many farmers decided to stick to cheap immigrant labour. |
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