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Post by Einhorn on May 27, 2023 16:18:22 GMT
Isn't that a logical impossibility? How can something consciously decide to replicate consciousness? It would have to have consciousness to consciously decide to replicate consciousness. Why not ? AI could synthesis it. why cant a model of consciousness be constructed and programmed into a computer? AI could synthesise it? Think about that. How could it make a conscious decision to become conscious before it is conscious?
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Post by Einhorn on May 27, 2023 16:19:52 GMT
Yes, there are two theories, as I mentioned. You have added a third to the mix: consciousness can just randomly appear in hitherto unconscious objects. Maybe, there are conscious rocks. We can't dismiss the possibility, I suppose. consciousness is abstract in that a tree has a form conscious recognition of its surroundings it bleeds when you cut it and can ever heal itself and suffer death from disease. Righto.
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Post by Bentley on May 27, 2023 16:24:53 GMT
There aren’t only two theories . The Cartesian one you provided is obsolete and the second one is meaningless. No one said that consciousness could appear in rocks . Second or third strawman from you. None of the above makes any sense. Cartesian dualism isn't obsolete. Mags put up a spirited defence of it reasonably. The biochemical one certainly isn't obsolete. In fact, it's the most popular explanation. I was wondering when the gammon tropes would make an appearance. The Cartesian version depends on a soul or spirit . Decarte claimed that animals are automatons. We can dispense with that one . Claiming that consciousness can only be present in a biological entity is based on the fact t that it’s only seen in biological entities . There is no universally agreed model on consciousness is or the mechanism behind it . Decarte is about as ridiculous as believing that genitalia can be changed with magic words . Play nice darling .
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Post by Orac on May 27, 2023 16:24:58 GMT
Well, you are very much having your cake and eating it, Mags. When we discussed this before, you were adamant that consciousness is a spirit. You asked me for my opinion and I provided it. You seem to be being a bit overly defensive here. My point is - if consciousness emerges from a mechanical process located in the brain, there should be no reason in principle why the pertinent properties of that consciousness making process can't be replicated / recreated / built somewhere else. Notice the two words in bold There is no conceivable way a piece of silicon can evolve a consciousness. The odds of its having the same biochemical make-up as a brain are extraordinarily slim. As I said, if the biochemical make-up of the brain and silicone were similar, someone would surely have commented on it before now. This is a bit like saying there is no way consciousness could spring from a cup of water - yet that is more or less what a human brain is. The real question is what are the pertinent (necessary) properties - in what dimensions do they reside? - a real rabbit-hole imho
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Post by sheepy on May 27, 2023 16:28:14 GMT
consciousness is abstract in that a tree has a form conscious recognition of its surroundings it bleeds when you cut it and can ever heal itself and suffer death from disease. Righto. Just broadening your horizons like a branch.
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Post by Bentley on May 27, 2023 16:29:12 GMT
Why not ? AI could synthesis it. why cant a model of consciousness be constructed and programmed into a computer? AI could synthesise it? Think about that. How could it make a conscious decision to become conscious before it is conscious? Unless you believe it the Cartesian model then it could possibly be made by replicating the way the brain works . Do you believe in the magic of consciousness. What magical properties do humans possess?
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Post by Einhorn on May 27, 2023 16:31:21 GMT
AI could synthesise it? Think about that. How could it make a conscious decision to become conscious before it is conscious? Unless you believe it the Cartesian model then it could possibly be made by replicating the way the brain works . Do you believe in the magic of consciousness. What magical properties do humans possess? And who would replicate it? Human beings? Yes, that's not beyond the bounds of possibility. But a machine can't and won't make a conscious decision to create consciousness for itself. Because only a conscious being can do that.
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Post by Einhorn on May 27, 2023 16:31:55 GMT
Just broadening your horizons like a branch. More, please! I'm always eager to learn about statues.
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Post by Einhorn on May 27, 2023 16:33:30 GMT
Well, you are very much having your cake and eating it, Mags. When we discussed this before, you were adamant that consciousness is a spirit. You asked me for my opinion and I provided it. You seem to be being a bit overly defensive here. My point is - if consciousness emerges from a mechanical process located in the brain, there should be no reason in principle why the pertinent properties of that consciousness making process can't be replicated / recreated / built somewhere else. Notice the two words in bold There is no conceivable way a piece of silicon can evolve a consciousness. The odds of its having the same biochemical make-up as a brain are extraordinarily slim. As I said, if the biochemical make-up of the brain and silicone were similar, someone would surely have commented on it before now. This is a bit like saying there is no way consciousness could spring from a cup of water - yet that is more or less what a human brain is. The real question is what are the pertinent (necessary) properties - in what dimensions do they reside? - a real rabbit-hole imho A human brain is much more than a cup of water. You can do better, Mags.
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Post by sheepy on May 27, 2023 16:35:15 GMT
Just broadening your horizons like a branch. More, please! I'm always eager to learn about statues. You only unconsciously defensive when you get out of your conscious depth.
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Post by Orac on May 27, 2023 16:35:49 GMT
You asked me for my opinion and I provided it. You seem to be being a bit overly defensive here. My point is - if consciousness emerges from a mechanical process located in the brain, there should be no reason in principle why the pertinent properties of that consciousness making process can't be replicated / recreated / built somewhere else. Notice the two words in bold This is a bit like saying there is no way consciousness could spring from a cup of water - yet that is more or less what a human brain is. The real question is what are the pertinent (necessary) properties - in what dimensions do they reside? - a real rabbit-hole imho A human brain is much more than a cup of water. You can do better, Mags. Of course - it's absurdly reductive to talk about water or silicone in this context. That was my point.
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Post by Einhorn on May 27, 2023 16:36:05 GMT
More, please! I'm always eager to learn about statues. You only unconsciously defensive when you get out of your conscious depth. Yes, that must be it.
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Post by Bentley on May 27, 2023 16:36:41 GMT
Unless you believe it the Cartesian model then it could possibly be made by replicating the way the brain works . Do you believe in the magic of consciousness. What magical properties do humans possess? And who would replicate it? Human beings? Yes, that's not beyond the bounds of possibility. But a machine can't and won't make a conscious decision to create consciousness for itself. Because only a conscious being can do that. Because consciousness only exists in humans and humans are special because only they have consciousness….ffs.lol
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Post by Einhorn on May 27, 2023 16:37:37 GMT
A human brain is much more than a cup of water. You can do better, Mags. Of course - it's absurdly reductive to talk about water or silicone in this context. That was my point. I agree. The idea that silicone has the same bio-chemical make-up as is required to create consciousness is absurd.
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Post by Einhorn on May 27, 2023 16:38:42 GMT
And who would replicate it? Human beings? Yes, that's not beyond the bounds of possibility. But a machine can't and won't make a conscious decision to create consciousness for itself. Because only a conscious being can do that. Because consciousness only exists in humans and humans are special because only they have consciousness….ffs.lol I've no idea what the above is supposed to mean. But at least we appear to have progressed beyond the idea that silicone has the same bio-chemical qualities as the human brain.
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