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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2023 15:55:32 GMT
A rational entity that knows it exists is conscious. I believe there are two theories of consciousness: 1) Cartesian dualism. This holds that mind or consciousness is a spirit that is separate from the human body. Cartesian dualists believe consciousness or spirit survives the body, and, in theory at least, can live forever. 2) The bio-chemical theory of consciousness. This self-evidently holds that consciousness is the product of bio-chemical processes. What kind of consciousness do you imagine a machine could have? Do you see machines attracting spirits in the way Cartesian dualists imagine human bodies do? Or do you see machines developing a biological/chemical basis for consciousness? Or is there is a third source of consciousness? Self evidently =Consciousness is only known to be present in biological entities . That doesn’t mean it can’t be present in non biological entities. Silicone based computers are made from chemicals . Consciousness has not been ‘ condensed’ or isolated as to a known substance or energy in itself . The hardware is fixed, though. Compressed physics has come a long way, but there are limitations to how far we can go with this technology. The hardware that is our brain grows and evolves. It's dynamically making connections whenever you learn something. Currently, only software can do that.
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Post by Einhorn on May 27, 2023 15:56:41 GMT
I don't see that it's much of a leap. If consciousness really can't be created artificially, this fact would form quite a mystery. However, there is a problem with every step of this conversation - I also can't see how, even in principle, we would ever know whether or not we have created / duplicated consciousness You are a cartesian dualist. You believe consciousness is a spirit. For you, the only way machines can become conscious is if they somehow manage to convince a spirit to inhabit their structure in the same way you believe spirits inhabit human beings.
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Post by sheepy on May 27, 2023 16:02:06 GMT
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Post by Einhorn on May 27, 2023 16:05:12 GMT
That is not a conscious entity. It is following a code that has been inputted by a conscious entity. It is not acting from its own will any more so than a item dropped from your hand acts according to its own will when it falls to the floor.
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Post by Orac on May 27, 2023 16:05:51 GMT
I don't see that it's much of a leap. If consciousness really can't be created artificially, this fact would form quite a mystery. However, there is a problem with every step of this conversation - I also can't see how, even in principle, we would ever know whether or not we have created / duplicated consciousness You are a cartesian dualist. You believe consciousness is a spirit. For you, the only way machines can become conscious is if they somehow manage to convince a spirit to inhabit their structure in the same way you believe spirits inhabit human beings. Just because i believe something doesn't mean something else might not be the case. As far as we can ascertain, a person's consciousness appears to be a product of unknown / un-mapped / not understood processes located in their brain. If we can't duplicate such when we get to all but duplicating that process, then we have hit a mystery. However, I should add that i think discovering this is probably impossible (for a start, it's a negative). The machines will became more and more capable and we will eventually form two groups regarding the speculation that they are conscious. We may well end up with machines that are accepted as conscious with no idea at all how they work or what consciousness is.
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Post by Bentley on May 27, 2023 16:07:57 GMT
So you believe that AI is based on lightning and and a fictional character of a horror story ? No, I was pointing out that it makes as much sense as your proposition. I would have thought that the chances of silicone having the same biochemical make-up as a consciousness-producing brain are remote to the point of being non-existent. But, hey, there’s always that possibility, I suppose (though, it is peculiar that no-one has ever commented on the biochemical resemblance of the brain and silicone before). The mechanism of consciousness is not universally agreed. As you pointed out .
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Post by Bentley on May 27, 2023 16:08:55 GMT
Self evidently =Consciousness is only known to be present in biological entities . That doesn’t mean it can’t be present in non biological entities. Silicone based computers are made from chemicals . Consciousness has not been ‘ condensed’ or isolated as to a known substance or energy in itself . The hardware is fixed, though. Compressed physics has come a long way, but there are limitations to how far we can go with this technology. The hardware that is our brain grows and evolves. It's dynamically making connections whenever you learn something. Currently, only software can do that. ‘Currently ‘being the operative word.
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Post by Einhorn on May 27, 2023 16:09:16 GMT
You are a cartesian dualist. You believe consciousness is a spirit. For you, the only way machines can become conscious is if they somehow manage to convince a spirit to inhabit their structure in the same way you believe spirits inhabit human beings. Just because i believe something doesn't mean something else might not be the case. As far as we can ascertain, a persons consciousness appears to be a product of processes located in their brain. If we can't duplicate such when we get to all but duplicating that process, then we have hit a mystery. However, I should add that i think discovering this is probably impossible (for a start, it's a negative). The machines will became more and more capable and we will eventually form two groups regarding the speculation that they are conscious. Well, you are very much having your cake and eating it, Mags. When we discussed this before, you were adamant that consciousness is a spirit. There is no conceivable way a piece of silicon can evolve a consciousness. The odds of its having the same biochemical make-up as a brain are extraordinarily slim. As I said, if the biochemical make-up of the brain and silicone were similar, someone would surely have commented on it before now.
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Post by Einhorn on May 27, 2023 16:10:52 GMT
No, I was pointing out that it makes as much sense as your proposition. I would have thought that the chances of silicone having the same biochemical make-up as a consciousness-producing brain are remote to the point of being non-existent. But, hey, there’s always that possibility, I suppose (though, it is peculiar that no-one has ever commented on the biochemical resemblance of the brain and silicone before). The mechanism of consciousness is not universally agreed. As you pointed out . Yes, there are two theories, as I mentioned. You have added a third to the mix: consciousness can just randomly appear in hitherto unconscious objects. Maybe, there are conscious rocks. We can't dismiss the possibility, I suppose.
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Post by Bentley on May 27, 2023 16:12:23 GMT
Just because i believe something doesn't mean something else might not be the case. As far as we can ascertain, a persons consciousness appears to be a product of processes located in their brain. If we can't duplicate such when we get to all but duplicating that process, then we have hit a mystery. However, I should add that i think discovering this is probably impossible (for a start, it's a negative). The machines will became more and more capable and we will eventually form two groups regarding the speculation that they are conscious. Well, you are very much having your cake and eating it, Mags. When we discussed this before, you were adamant that consciousness is a spirit. There is no conceivable way a piece of silicon can evolve a consciousness. The odds of its having the same biochemical make-up as a brain are extraordinarily slim. As I said, if the biochemical make-up of the brain and silicone were similar, someone would surely have commented on it before now. It doesn’t have to evolve a consciousness . It has to replicate it or synthesise it.
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Post by Einhorn on May 27, 2023 16:13:55 GMT
Well, you are very much having your cake and eating it, Mags. When we discussed this before, you were adamant that consciousness is a spirit. There is no conceivable way a piece of silicon can evolve a consciousness. The odds of its having the same biochemical make-up as a brain are extraordinarily slim. As I said, if the biochemical make-up of the brain and silicone were similar, someone would surely have commented on it before now. It doesn’t have to evolve a consciousness . It has to replicate it or synthesise it. Isn't that a logical impossibility? How can something consciously decide to replicate consciousness? It would have to have consciousness to consciously decide to replicate consciousness.
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Post by Bentley on May 27, 2023 16:14:58 GMT
The mechanism of consciousness is not universally agreed. As you pointed out . Yes, there are two theories, as I mentioned. You have added a third to the mix: consciousness can just randomly appear in hitherto unconscious objects. Maybe, there are conscious rocks. We can't dismiss the possibility, I suppose. There aren’t only two theories . The Cartesian one you provided is obsolete and the second one is meaningless. No one said that consciousness could appear in rocks . Second or third strawman from you.
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Post by sheepy on May 27, 2023 16:15:13 GMT
The mechanism of consciousness is not universally agreed. As you pointed out . Yes, there are two theories, as I mentioned. You have added a third to the mix: consciousness can just randomly appear in hitherto unconscious objects. Maybe, there are conscious rocks. We can't dismiss the possibility, I suppose. consciousness is abstract in that a tree has a form conscious recognition of its surroundings it bleeds when you cut it and can ever heal itself and suffer death from disease.
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Post by Bentley on May 27, 2023 16:16:53 GMT
It doesn’t have to evolve a consciousness . It has to replicate it or synthesise it. Isn't that a logical impossibility? How can something consciously decide to replicate consciousness? It would have to have consciousness to consciously decide to replicate consciousness. Why not ? AI could synthesis it. why cant a model of consciousness be constructed and programmed into a computer?
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Post by Einhorn on May 27, 2023 16:17:27 GMT
Yes, there are two theories, as I mentioned. You have added a third to the mix: consciousness can just randomly appear in hitherto unconscious objects. Maybe, there are conscious rocks. We can't dismiss the possibility, I suppose. There aren’t only two theories . The Cartesian one you provided is obsolete and the second one is meaningless. No one said that consciousness could appear in rocks . Second or third strawman from you. None of the above makes any sense. Cartesian dualism isn't obsolete. Mags put up a spirited defence of it recently. The biochemical one certainly isn't obsolete. In fact, it's the most popular explanation. I was wondering when the gammon tropes would make an appearance.
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