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Post by Einhorn on May 17, 2023 12:08:15 GMT
Given I was the only poster arguing the leftist position, the assumption you were referencing me wasn't entirely unwarranted, Wappy. Oh I see,so Srb and Sid have turned in to Nazis,OK  I haven't read their contributions yet. Given they weren't involved in the discussion at the point of your remark, my assumption was fair. Let's try to put to this behind us, Wapentake. |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on May 17, 2023 12:26:56 GMT
You've more chance of becoming a barista than a barrister, Whoiney. Indeed, members of my family have been both. But sadly above your skill set on both counts, Whoiney. |
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Post by bancroft on May 17, 2023 12:30:17 GMT
Just a further thought on the diamond.
India demands it back yet if it was given by a Sultan and his relatives are all in Pakistan it might due to Pakistan, yet hang on a minute says the Afghans it was mined on our land, it should be ours.
Pandoras box.........let the UN decide!
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Post by Bentley on May 17, 2023 12:37:59 GMT
I totally agree with Darlings point that the ordinary Brit was just as oppressed as the oppressed people of the Empire. I hold the same views about the North Atlantic slave trade and the attempts of white collective guilt by lefties . However I’m ever suspicious of leftie mission creep . Today lefties will demand some trinkets be returned , tomorrow demand land and money be returned, the day after tomorrow they will demand a nationwide levy . Quite a lot of predictions there. Tell me, do you consult an oracle or do you examine pigs' entrails? Lefties are committed to their leftie utopian wet dream darling . When lefties appear to be fair and normal , sensible people should bear this in mind . |
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Post by Bentley on May 17, 2023 12:45:51 GMT
Quite a lot of predictions there. Tell me, do you consult an oracle or do you examine pigs' entrails? Like the rest of us Mr B probably goes by experience, Whoiney. If you weren't simply an academic lawyer, you might even have some of your own. When hitherto untrustworthy and irrational people appear to be rational and normal then you know they are trying to kid you. I lied to you yesterday but today I’m telling the truth isn’t a great basis for trust. |
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Post by sandypine on May 17, 2023 13:23:19 GMT
Which kind of illustrates the point that you select your issues and run with those to the exclusion of any mitigating factor. It is the Nelson Mandela deification principle at work. The necklacing the murders the bombings are ignored all in the view of the greater good. People, Empires and all things are a mixed bag you have to view all in the round. Certainly, you can compare one Empire with another. Some empires will have been less destructive than others. That's not in dispute. But it doesn't make sense to say, as Moggy suggests, that Britain should be proud. If the British Empire was less vicious than the Turkish empire, it seems more appropriate to say that Britain should not feel as ashamed as Turkey, rather than saying Britain should actually be proud. Again you are using language that does not reflect what was attempted by many in the Empire. That was to improve the lot of the native populations. Mill in his 'The British in India' is quite scathing as regards the local cultures of Islam and Hinduism and there is little doubt, especially in India, many altruistic ventures were carried out with various degrees of success born from a desire to improve. Once again you concentrate only on the areas you have used to paint the evil empire picture. Mogg can certainly say there is much in the Empire to be proud of and similarly much to be not proud about but overall for most peoples, based on the morals of today, it was a success. |
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Post by wapentake on May 17, 2023 14:14:53 GMT
Oh I see,so Srb and Sid have turned in to Nazis,OK I haven't read their contributions yet. Given they weren't involved in the discussion at the point of your remark, my assumption was fair. Let's try to put to this behind us, Wapentake. I wasn’t having a go  but I’m not right wing either but yep happy to leave it there. |
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Post by Toreador on May 17, 2023 15:07:10 GMT
Excellent lecture well delivered. |
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Post by Einhorn on May 17, 2023 16:14:45 GMT
Certainly, you can compare one Empire with another. Some empires will have been less destructive than others. That's not in dispute. But it doesn't make sense to say, as Moggy suggests, that Britain should be proud. If the British Empire was less vicious than the Turkish empire, it seems more appropriate to say that Britain should not feel as ashamed as Turkey, rather than saying Britain should actually be proud. Again you are using language that does not reflect what was attempted by many in the Empire. That was to improve the lot of the native populations. Mill in his 'The British in India' is quite scathing as regards the local cultures of Islam and Hinduism and there is little doubt, especially in India, many altruistic ventures were carried out with various degrees of success born from a desire to improve. Once again you concentrate only on the areas you have used to paint the evil empire picture. Mogg can certainly say there is much in the Empire to be proud of and similarly much to be not proud about but overall for most peoples, based on the morals of today, it was a success. And again, we come back to the Fred West empire model versus the Harold Shipman model. Yes, the British empire was better than other empires. But it wasn't a philanthropic enterprise. It carried out acts of barbarous cruelty. Ordinary British soldiers were often the agents of that cruelty. But it's not as if they had much choice. Things are different today. When ordered to disregard the safety of refugees (that is, when ordered to 'push back' boats in the channel) the men and women of the Navy simply refused. The cruelty of the Empire wasn't the work of the ordinary Brit, and the idea that the ordinary Brit is responsible for reparations is simply laughable. Charity begins at home, Sandy. The elite would have done well to turn their attention to the appalling conditions in the UK before setting out on what you appear to believe was a charitable endeavour (though, how you could have reached the conclusion that it was in any way motivated by charitable intentions is anyone's guess). |
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Post by Pacifico on May 17, 2023 16:50:47 GMT
Just a further thought on the diamond. India demands it back yet if it was given by a Sultan and his relatives are all in Pakistan it might due to Pakistan, yet hang on a minute says the Afghans it was mined on our land, it should be ours. Pandoras box........ .let the UN decide!Hmm - the last time the UK allowed the UN to decide anything we ended up with the Arab-Israeli war and 70 years of conflict in the Middle East..  |
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Post by sandypine on May 17, 2023 18:49:25 GMT
Again you are using language that does not reflect what was attempted by many in the Empire. That was to improve the lot of the native populations. Mill in his 'The British in India' is quite scathing as regards the local cultures of Islam and Hinduism and there is little doubt, especially in India, many altruistic ventures were carried out with various degrees of success born from a desire to improve. Once again you concentrate only on the areas you have used to paint the evil empire picture. Mogg can certainly say there is much in the Empire to be proud of and similarly much to be not proud about but overall for most peoples, based on the morals of today, it was a success. And again, we come back to the Fred West empire model versus the Harold Shipman model. Yes, the British empire was better than other empires. But it wasn't a philanthropic enterprise. It carried out acts of barbarous cruelty. Ordinary British soldiers were often the agents of that cruelty. But it's not as if they had much choice. Things are different today. When ordered to disregard the safety of refugees (that is, when ordered to 'push back' boats in the channel) the men and women of the Navy simply refused. The cruelty of the Empire wasn't the work of the ordinary Brit, and the idea that the ordinary Brit is responsible for reparations is simply laughable. Charity begins at home, Sandy. The elite would have done well to turn their attention to the appalling conditions in the UK before setting out on what you appear to believe was a charitable endeavour (though, how you could have reached the conclusion that it was in any way motivated by charitable intentions is anyone's guess). No it is not the Fred West comparison because you are erring that all was bad but not as bad as others which is not what I am currently saying. You have to show what Fred West that was good, and there is little doubt that the Empire did things that were good, unless of course you are saying it was all bad, are you? The rest we have done to death. |
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Post by Einhorn on May 17, 2023 18:52:32 GMT
And again, we come back to the Fred West empire model versus the Harold Shipman model. Yes, the British empire was better than other empires. But it wasn't a philanthropic enterprise. It carried out acts of barbarous cruelty. Ordinary British soldiers were often the agents of that cruelty. But it's not as if they had much choice. Things are different today. When ordered to disregard the safety of refugees (that is, when ordered to 'push back' boats in the channel) the men and women of the Navy simply refused. The cruelty of the Empire wasn't the work of the ordinary Brit, and the idea that the ordinary Brit is responsible for reparations is simply laughable. Charity begins at home, Sandy. The elite would have done well to turn their attention to the appalling conditions in the UK before setting out on what you appear to believe was a charitable endeavour (though, how you could have reached the conclusion that it was in any way motivated by charitable intentions is anyone's guess). No it is not the Fred West comparison because you are erring that all was bad but not as bad as others which is not what I am currently saying. You have to show what Fred West that was good, and there is little doubt that the Empire did things that were good, unless of course you are saying it was all bad, are you? The rest we have done to death. I'm saying it was wrong and it should never have happened. If the march for democracy at Peterloo had not been brutally supressed, it would have ended a lot sooner than it did. |
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Post by sandypine on May 17, 2023 19:10:39 GMT
No it is not the Fred West comparison because you are erring that all was bad but not as bad as others which is not what I am currently saying. You have to show what Fred West that was good, and there is little doubt that the Empire did things that were good, unless of course you are saying it was all bad, are you? The rest we have done to death. I'm saying it was wrong and it should never have happened. If the march for democracy at Peterloo had not been brutally supressed, it would have ended a lot sooner than it did. Good God, most of history is wrong by comparison to today's morals and mores. You cannot wring your hands in angst and wail and moan how bad it all was. It did happen what you have to do is assess what did happen, was it bad, was it good, what is the legacy, is it good is it bad. That depends very much on a point of view and is currently polarised, not helped by your assessments. |
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Post by Einhorn on May 17, 2023 19:23:57 GMT
I'm saying it was wrong and it should never have happened. If the march for democracy at Peterloo had not been brutally supressed, it would have ended a lot sooner than it did. Good God, most of history is wrong by comparison to today's morals and mores. You cannot wring your hands in angst and wail and moan how bad it all was. It did happen what you have to do is assess what did happen, was it bad, was it good, what is the legacy, is it good is it bad. That depends very much on a point of view and is currently polarised, not helped by your assessments. You say it is wrong by today's standards. In that case, what would you say to Moggy when he says it is something to be proud of? I'm sorry you feel my having an opinion on the subject is polarising. I have clearly misunderstood the function of a debating forum. |
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Post by sandypine on May 17, 2023 19:30:59 GMT
Good God, most of history is wrong by comparison to today's morals and mores. You cannot wring your hands in angst and wail and moan how bad it all was. It did happen what you have to do is assess what did happen, was it bad, was it good, what is the legacy, is it good is it bad. That depends very much on a point of view and is currently polarised, not helped by your assessments. You say it is wrong by today's standards. In that case, what would you say to Moggy when he says it is something to be proud of? I'm sorry you feel my having an opinion on the subject is polarising. I have clearly misunderstood the function of a debating forum. There are many aspects of the Empire to be proud of as I have said, as I am tired of repeating. It is a complex balance and on balance we should be proud. You may disagree and the polarising comment is with regards to only concentrating on the bad and accentuating the bad and effectively ignoring the good. Maybe I missed it but you have indeed accentuated the bad and seem unwilling to acknowledge any good. There was a chap I saw recently on TV who said the effects of Empire were always bad. |
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but I’m not right wing either but yep happy to leave it there.
