|
|
Post by wapentake on Feb 28, 2023 7:38:59 GMT
You need to move away from Britain if you're seeking true democracy but don't ask where you should move to. Isn't it absurd that these remnants harp on about democrocy but wish to be controlled by unelected failed polits where there is no mechanism to remove them once they have been chosen behind closed doors? I’ve met more than a few who disapprove of referenda,after they lost the last one. They were happy with Teds original but again it should only ever have been a one off,many arguments for our return are that brexit is a mess whilst failing to acknowledge the all encompassing eu and its regulatory web has proved the block to leaving. Some fear another referendum and say parliament should decide,apparently the people are competent to appoint a legislature by election to decide our future but too stupid to do so in a referendum. The mental gymnastics of what democracy composes of are a wonder to behol. |
|
|
|
Post by Toreador on Feb 28, 2023 8:33:15 GMT
Very few people support the one vote democracy where the public are denied the right to change their minds. As far as I can see a system where you get one vote and are then stuck with the result whatever happens is not called democracy. Well that is nonsense. If you want a vote on joining the EU vote for a party promising you a vote on joining the EU - which is precisely what enough people did to force a referendum in the first place. If you only vote for parties who are unwilling to allow a vote you only have yourself to blame. I would just point out that we have had 2 General Elections since the referendum vote. Question: Why would someone vote when they thought the result wouldn't be democratic? |
|
|
|
Post by Pacifico on Feb 28, 2023 8:42:55 GMT
Well that is nonsense. If you want a vote on joining the EU vote for a party promising you a vote on joining the EU - which is precisely what enough people did to force a referendum in the first place. If you only vote for parties who are unwilling to allow a vote you only have yourself to blame. I would just point out that we have had 2 General Elections since the referendum vote. Question: Why would someone vote when they thought the result wouldn't be democratic? It's the only game in town. Yes there may be better ways of doing things but they are not available. |
|
|
|
Post by see2 on Feb 28, 2023 9:02:55 GMT
Isn't it absurd that these remnants harp on about democrocy but wish to be controlled by unelected failed polits where there is no mechanism to remove them once they have been chosen behind closed doors? I’ve met more than a few who disapprove of referenda,after they lost the last one. They were happy with Teds original but again it should only ever have been a one off,many arguments for our return are that brexit is a mess whilst failing to acknowledge the all encompassing eu and its regulatory web has proved the block to leaving. Some fear another referendum and say parliament should decide,apparently the people are competent to appoint a legislature by election to decide our future but too stupid to do so in a referendum. The mental gymnastics of what democracy composes of are a wonder to behol. Referenda depends upon unreliable public opinion which can too easily change and which is too easily influenced by the media. Take the economic and social destructiveness of the Thatcher period in office. The electorate were so misled by the media and Tory propaganda that it took her own party to remove her from office. Elected MPs form part of a Representative Democracy where MPs collect information and debate issues and produce results that are not just based upon the unreliable whim of public opinion and media bias. |
|
|
|
Post by Toreador on Feb 28, 2023 9:07:30 GMT
I’ve met more than a few who disapprove of referenda,after they lost the last one. They were happy with Teds original but again it should only ever have been a one off,many arguments for our return are that brexit is a mess whilst failing to acknowledge the all encompassing eu and its regulatory web has proved the block to leaving. Some fear another referendum and say parliament should decide,apparently the people are competent to appoint a legislature by election to decide our future but too stupid to do so in a referendum. The mental gymnastics of what democracy composes of are a wonder to behol. Referenda depends upon unreliable public opinion which can too easily change and which is too easily influenced by the media. Take the economic and social destructiveness of the Thatcher period in office. The electorate were so misled by the media and Tory propaganda that it took her own party to remove her from office. Elected MPs form part of a Representative Democracy where MPs collect information and debate issues and produce results that are not just based upon the unreliable whim of public opinion and media bias. Like millions of others you are lulled into thinking representative democracy is true democracy, not only is it not it isn't remotely true; if it was, we and numerous other nations wouldn't be in the state they are now. Now tell us why you voted in a referendum that you consider flawed. |
|
|
|
Post by see2 on Feb 28, 2023 9:10:41 GMT
We are deeper in the mire since leaving.As for Farage he is one of the few people that I quite quickly to a strong dislike to, something about him just doesn't wring true for me. I think you already know I can't stand the man. How so? Take a look at the value of the Pound for starters. And look at the mess in terms of trade, of unhooking from the EU, when the message in 2016 was all we had to do was leave and it would be blue skies and fair weather. |
|
|
|
Post by Bentley on Feb 28, 2023 9:15:03 GMT
Imo the only way that Brexit would be a complete ‘ success’ is if we became ‘ Singapore on Thames ‘ . This isn’t going to happen so we do need a working relationship with the EU.
There seems to be a lot of people with a vested interest for the Windsor agreement to fail.
|
|
|
|
Post by Toreador on Feb 28, 2023 9:16:58 GMT
Take a look at the value of the Pound for starters. And look at the mess in terms of trade, of unhooking from the EU, when the message in 2016 was all we had to do was leave and it would be blue skies and fair weather. The pound was overvalued and had ever been since the EU committed to a common currency. It was set at too high a level that was welcomed by Germany, France and a few others. |
|
|
|
Post by see2 on Feb 28, 2023 9:22:57 GMT
Referenda depends upon unreliable public opinion which can too easily change and which is too easily influenced by the media. Take the economic and social destructiveness of the Thatcher period in office. The electorate were so misled by the media and Tory propaganda that it took her own party to remove her from office. Elected MPs form part of a Representative Democracy where MPs collect information and debate issues and produce results that are not just based upon the unreliable whim of public opinion and media bias. Like millions of others you are lulled into thinking representative democracy is true democracy, not only is it not it isn't remotely true; if it was, we and numerous other nations wouldn't be in the state they are now. Now tell us why you voted in a referendum that you consider flawed. Representative Democracy i.e. collective gathering of information and debating that information is so superior to following the unreliable media biased whim of public opinion. The referendum was forced upon the public, so it became necessary for people to make a choice. But as explained over Thatcher the media has far too much unelected power and influence over people. Exacerbated by dishonest, loud mouthed and immature people like Farage. Remember Farage's childish attack on Van Rompuy? |
|
|
|
Post by see2 on Feb 28, 2023 9:26:55 GMT
Take a look at the value of the Pound for starters. And look at the mess in terms of trade, of unhooking from the EU, when the message in 2016 was all we had to do was leave and it would be blue skies and fair weather. The pound was overvalued and had ever been since the EU committed to a common currency. It was set at too high a level that was welcomed by Germany, France and a few others. Oh, so when the the pound regains to a more normal 1.3+ to the Dollar it will be over valued. That sounds interesting. |
|
|
|
Post by Steve on Feb 28, 2023 9:30:08 GMT
The pound was overvalued and had ever been since the EU committed to a common currency. It was set at too high a level that was welcomed by Germany, France and a few others.  So now we're onto page 2 of the Brexiters book of false excuses for the harm they've done |
|
|
|
Post by Red Rackham on Feb 28, 2023 9:43:16 GMT
Either Sunak fulfills the Brexit' promise or Labour will win the next GE. 17,000,000 voters who invested heavily in politics at the Referendum are watching closely. ........The Devil will be in the detail....Remember the Maastricht/Lisbon Treaties. This from the Telegraph dated 19th April 2004.....QUOTE...Just a 'tidying-up exercise' or a drastic loss of sovereignty?...UNQUOTE. Lisbon Treaty was rejected by several countries...incl' the UK. The told by the EUSSR to go back and get it ratified by changing aspects of it. All that happened was a re-wording, wrapped up in solid "legalise" to confuse the general Public, giving the impression that it had been altered, when in fact in hadn't, it still gave ever more control over to Brussels.......This will be no different, they will just dress it up in a NEW COAT!
Rishi Sunak 'has won big concessions from the EUSSR and new deal will 'finish the job and ensure Brexit works', PM claims as he is poised to sign agreement with Brussels - despite warnings it could spark Tory civil war
EU Commission President Ursula von der Leyen to travel to the UK on Monday
She is set to shake hands with Rishi Sunak on post-Brexit trading arrangements
The meeting over Northern Ireland trade agreements will take place in Windsor
You reckon Sunak has won big concessions from the EU, Jonksy. On the face of it I reckon that's what we're supposed to think. But in due course we may discover the so called 'Windsor Framework' isn't all it's cracked up to be. The biggest red flag for me so far is the fact that hard line remainiacs in the Labour party are hailing it as a great deal. Also, the EU have always absolutely insisted that any renegotiation of the NI Protocol was impossible, they have been consistent on this point. Suddenly it's all but torn up, apparently just 2% of the protocol is incorporated into the Windsor Framework, and we're told that 1,700 EU laws have been scrapped. This sounds to me like a deal that is designed to look good to the electorate. The fact is we don't know what's been agreed behind the scenes. As Sir John Redwood said, lets have a look at the small print. Indeed, this morning I listened to David Davis being interviewed, it was put to him that 1,700 EU laws had been scrapped. He smiled and said; yes, we'll have to have a look at that. The fact is when people in particular DUP lawyers, have had an opportunity to study the detail, I think we may find the deal is not quite as great for the UK or NI after all. Lets not forget, the EU mantra has always been, the UK must be punished for Brexit. Why would the EU suddenly change their mind? And while I'm here, why was Ursula von der Leyen given a royal audience? As far as I'm aware a royal audience is a privilage extended to heads of state, not unelected euro bureaucrats. |
|
|
|
Post by Steve on Feb 28, 2023 9:57:23 GMT
Either Sunak fulfills the Brexit' promise or Labour will win the next GE. 17,000,000 voters who invested heavily in politics at the Referendum are watching closely. ........The Devil will be in the detail....Remember the Maastricht/Lisbon Treaties. This from the Telegraph dated 19th April 2004.....QUOTE...Just a 'tidying-up exercise' or a drastic loss of sovereignty?...UNQUOTE. Lisbon Treaty was rejected by several countries...incl' the UK. The told by the EUSSR to go back and get it ratified by changing aspects of it. All that happened was a re-wording, wrapped up in solid "legalise" to confuse the general Public, giving the impression that it had been altered, when in fact in hadn't, it still gave ever more control over to Brussels.......This will be no different, they will just dress it up in a NEW COAT!
Rishi Sunak 'has won big concessions from the EUSSR and new deal will 'finish the job and ensure Brexit works', PM claims as he is poised to sign agreement with Brussels - despite warnings it could spark Tory civil war
EU Commission President Ursula von der Leyen to travel to the UK on Monday
She is set to shake hands with Rishi Sunak on post-Brexit trading arrangements
The meeting over Northern Ireland trade agreements will take place in Windsor
You reckon Sunak has won big concessions from the EU, Jonksy. On the face of it I reckon that's what we're supposed to think. But in due course we may discover the so called 'Windsor Framework' isn't all it's cracked up to be. The biggest red flag for me so far is the fact that hard line remainiacs in the Labour party are hailing it as a great deal. Also, the EU have always absolutely insisted that any renegotiation of the NI Protocol was impossible, they have been consistent on this point. Suddenly it's all but torn up, apparently just 2% of the protocol is incorporated into the Windsor Framework, and we're told that 1,700 EU laws have been scrapped. This sounds to me like a deal that is designed to look good to the electorate. The fact is we don't know what's been agreed behind the scenes. As Sir John Redwood said, lets have a look at the small print. Indeed, this morning I listened to David Davis being interviewed, it was put to him that 1,700 EU laws had been scrapped. He smiled and said; yes, we'll have to have a look at that. The fact is when people in particular DUP lawyers, have had an opportunity to study the detail, I think we may find the deal is not quite as great for the UK or NI after all. Lets not forget, the EU mantra has always been, the UK must be punished for Brexit. Why would the EU suddenly change their mind? And while I'm here, why was Ursula von der Leyen given a royal audience? As far as I'm aware a royal audience is a privilage extended to heads of state, not unelected euro bureaucrats. The detail has been available to read for over half a day now, feel free to find the details of substance you don't like. Just saying 'if Labour like it then it must be wrong' isn't a great argument. Nothing is ever perfect for all but wise people accept good over rejecting it for a fruitless pursuit for perfect. assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1138989/The_Windsor_Framework_a_new_way_forward.pdf You mention David Davis, he's backed it. |
|
|
|
Post by Fairsociety on Feb 28, 2023 9:58:43 GMT
Either Sunak fulfills the Brexit' promise or Labour will win the next GE. 17,000,000 voters who invested heavily in politics at the Referendum are watching closely. ........The Devil will be in the detail....Remember the Maastricht/Lisbon Treaties. This from the Telegraph dated 19th April 2004.....QUOTE...Just a 'tidying-up exercise' or a drastic loss of sovereignty?...UNQUOTE. Lisbon Treaty was rejected by several countries...incl' the UK. The told by the EUSSR to go back and get it ratified by changing aspects of it. All that happened was a re-wording, wrapped up in solid "legalise" to confuse the general Public, giving the impression that it had been altered, when in fact in hadn't, it still gave ever more control over to Brussels.......This will be no different, they will just dress it up in a NEW COAT!
Rishi Sunak 'has won big concessions from the EUSSR and new deal will 'finish the job and ensure Brexit works', PM claims as he is poised to sign agreement with Brussels - despite warnings it could spark Tory civil war
EU Commission President Ursula von der Leyen to travel to the UK on Monday
She is set to shake hands with Rishi Sunak on post-Brexit trading arrangements
The meeting over Northern Ireland trade agreements will take place in Windsor
You reckon Sunak has won big concessions from the EU, Jonksy. On the face of it I reckon that's what we're supposed to think. But in due course we may discover the so called 'Windsor Framework' isn't all it's cracked up to be. The biggest red flag for me so far is the fact that hard line remainiacs in the Labour party are hailing it as a great deal. Also, the EU have always absolutely insisted that any renegotiation of the NI Protocol was impossible, they have been consistent on this point. Suddenly it's all but torn up, apparently just 2% of the protocol is incorporated into the Windsor Framework, and we're told that 1,700 EU laws have been scrapped. This sounds to me like a deal that is designed to look good to the electorate. The fact is we don't know what's been agreed behind the scenes. As Sir John Redwood said, lets have a look at the small print. Indeed, this morning I listened to David Davis being interviewed, it was put to him that 1,700 EU laws had been scrapped. He smiled and said; yes, we'll have to have a look at that. The fact is when people in particular DUP lawyers, have had an opportunity to study the detail, I think we may find the deal is not quite as great for the UK or NI after all. Lets not forget, the EU mantra has always been, the UK must be punished for Brexit. Why would the EU suddenly change their mind?
And while I'm here, why was Ursula von der Leyen given a royal audience? As far as I'm aware a royal audience is a privilage extended to heads of state, not unelected euro bureaucrats. Because the British establishment have got so use to grovelling to the EU they can't break the habit.
It's cringeworthy when you watch Sunak and the rest of the bunch treating the EU elite like hero's, personally I would have liked to have cut ties completely.
|
|
|
|
Post by wapentake on Feb 28, 2023 9:59:40 GMT
Like millions of others you are lulled into thinking representative democracy is true democracy, not only is it not it isn't remotely true; if it was, we and numerous other nations wouldn't be in the state they are now. Now tell us why you voted in a referendum that you consider flawed. Representative Democracy i.e. collective gathering of information and debating that information is so superior to following the unreliable media biased whim of public opinion. The referendum was forced upon the public, so it became necessary for people to make a choice. But as explained over Thatcher the media has far too much unelected power and influence over people. Exacerbated by dishonest, loud mouthed and immature people like Farage. Remember Farage's childish attack on Van Rompuy? Priceless,forced on the people? No it took over four decades to win the right to vote,you of course forget your hero Blair’s promise to consult which he quietly shelved or when quoting Thatcher and the media you ignore his dishonest manipulation of the truth,loud mouth? sadly Blair hasn’t shut his since leaving office. |
|
