|
|
Post by Vinny on Jan 4, 2023 11:55:35 GMT
As Morayloon is into his history (and it's a fascinating subject) I've been looking into Scottish history myself.
At one time all of Northumberland a large part of Lancashire and even Doncaster in South Yorkshire were under Scottish control.
There was a peace treaty between King David and King Stephen in 1136 ceding Carlisle, Cumberland, large parts of Lancashire and also Doncaster to the Scottish King.
The treaty has never been repealed.
Technically speaking, these territories are still Scottish on paper.
Will the Scottish Parliament correct the oversight and offer these territories a constituency boundary for an MSP ?
|
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Jan 4, 2023 14:11:01 GMT
As Morayloon is into his history (and it's a fascinating subject) I've been looking into Scottish history myself. At one time all of Northumberland a large part of Lancashire and even Doncaster in South Yorkshire were under Scottish control. There was a peace treaty between King David and King Stephen in 1136 ceding Carlisle, Cumberland, large parts of Lancashire and also Doncaster to the Scottish King. The treaty has never been repealed. Technically speaking, these territories are still Scottish on paper. Will the Scottish Parliament correct the oversight and offer these territories a constituency boundary for an MSP ? no , because what you are saying is incorrect.
The treaty of york established once and for all ( excepting berwick) the old fluctuating border between scotland and England. The english ( or anglo saxon /northumbrian border) was at its furthest north in the 8th century , from roughly whithorn in modern dumfrieshire and galloway , over to the river esk in lothian.
By the 11th century , the gaelic kingdom of Alba had pushed the border as far south as cumbria and the river tyne.
King david whom you mention had the border as far south as the river ribble and tees for a short period , before the treaty of york marked the modern boundary in 1237.
As far as i know there has always been ambiguity regarding berwick , and from i remember some vague scottish law or treaty applying to doncaster , but nothing any modern politician from what i know takes serious.
What next? Are we going to invite the danish parliament to take back control of the old danelaw?
How about offering the germans the isle of sheppey and kent becuase of the german saxons had s foothold there. ?
|
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Jan 4, 2023 15:24:29 GMT
As Morayloon is into his history (and it's a fascinating subject) I've been looking into Scottish history myself. At one time all of Northumberland a large part of Lancashire and even Doncaster in South Yorkshire were under Scottish control. There was a peace treaty between King David and King Stephen in 1136 ceding Carlisle, Cumberland, large parts of Lancashire and also Doncaster to the Scottish King. The treaty has never been repealed. Technically speaking, these territories are still Scottish on paper. Will the Scottish Parliament correct the oversight and offer these territories a constituency boundary for an MSP ? anyway vinny why restrict this to scottish territory in England? What about French territory in England?
The French controlled the whole of your country for something like 300 years. Has paris got a shout about tidying up borchesters allotment?
I mind reading about the days the average londoner had to travel over to anjou to ask permission from his French king if he could erect a garden shed in Hackney.
|
|
|
|
Post by Vinny on Jan 4, 2023 19:58:50 GMT
I brought this up as the treaty has not been repealed.
It is still on the statute and technically what I said, is in theory correct even though in practice it is obvious that nobody in those places gives a damn.
I think it's just funny that Scots Nats who are obsessed with the past, know so little about it.
|
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Jan 4, 2023 20:35:40 GMT
I brought this up as the treaty has not been repealed. It is still on the statute and technically what I said, is in theory correct even though in practice it is obvious that nobody in those places gives a damn. I think it's just funny that Scots Nats who are obsessed with the past, know so little about it. i appear to know more about it than you vinny.
The borders of modern day scotland are mong the oldest , if not the oldest in europe . I hardly think anyone is going to start pulling apart countries based on historical anomalies .
|
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Jan 4, 2023 20:41:51 GMT
I brought this up as the treaty has not been repealed. King davids grandson Máel Coluim mac Eanric signed the english counties of cumberland westmorland and northumberland back in 1157 i believe. ( to repeal the treaties of durham)
in return for the northern english counties , he was given the earldom of huntingdon.
|
|
|
|
Post by Vinny on Jan 4, 2023 20:47:21 GMT
Even if Cumberland and Westmorland and Northumberland were officially given back, Doncaster was never formally returned. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DoncasterAccording to the treaty, it's still Scottish. So either repeal the treaty or give them MSPs. |
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Jan 4, 2023 20:55:33 GMT
Even if Cumberland and Westmorland and Northumberland were officially given back, Doncaster was never formally returned. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DoncasterAccording to the treaty, it's still Scottish. So either repeal the treaty or give them MSPs. i implied that up the page that i believed there was some ambiguity over doncaster and berwick. Not enough though for scotland to start making claims about foreign towns especially doncaster.
Jesus vinny do you hate england that much you want to divide it up to spite scotland when it leaves?
Do you know my mate patman post? Patman down in hackney promises me if scotland ends the uk , he is going to take london out of england to spite me.
Now i like a bit of a laugh , and i know political debate can often be plagued by imbeciles , but there is a red line....even for me.
|
|
|
|
Post by Vinny on Jan 4, 2023 20:59:08 GMT
1) Scotland isn't going to leave our united sovereign country, ever.
And 2), as devolution has happened albeit unfairly, this thread is about territories of Scotland who contribute taxes towards Scotland, who are not being represented in the devolved Parliament.
|
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Jan 4, 2023 21:03:09 GMT
1) Scotland isn't going to leave our united sovereign country, ever. And 2), as devolution has happened albeit unfairly, this thread is about territories of Scotland who contribute taxes towards Scotland, who are not being represented in the devolved Parliament. ok but we are talking about old treaties that havent been repealed....
|
|
|
|
Post by Vinny on Jan 4, 2023 21:24:41 GMT
That treaty is interesting too, but what French territory is there in the UK ?
|
|
|
|
Post by research0it on Jan 5, 2023 8:52:08 GMT
1) Scotland isn't going to leave our united sovereign country, ever. And 2), as devolution has happened albeit unfairly, this thread is about territories of Scotland who contribute taxes towards Scotland, who are not being represented in the devolved Parliament. Hi vinny You're a strange one. I can't think of anyone who is so passionate about Scotland NOT leaving the uk. Why? Your answer will be instructive to me. Here's a hint. Why emotionally not technically. That is how you feel, not what you think is fair. Secondly taxes aren't moved about by the uk government. The uk government borrows to cover the costs of the regions where the taxes don't cover the costs of public services, then ALL taxes service that debt. So, taking scotland specifically. I'll go to the time before covid as that will represent more accurately the true position of all, long term. So scotland had an assessed deficit of @ 12.6 billion. To cover that debt, the uk would borrow 12.6 billion. The interest on that borrowing would be around 250 milion back then. Probably about 400 million now. We deduct the 8.4 % of that debt that Scottish taxes would service. Leaves about 228 million or 366 million to be serviced by the 61 million people in the remainder of the uk. Per year. Or around 4 pound or 6 pounds per head per year. It's not in fact even as much as that as quite a lot of Scotland's costs are actually charges by the uk to scotland and the money is not actually spent in Scotland. Boosting economic activity and taxes outside scotland. Mainly London. For that you're getting all those resources, that don't appear as assets on any of the above calculations. |
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Jan 5, 2023 9:11:29 GMT
That treaty is interesting too, but what French territory is there in the UK ? What do you mean? I said French territory in England , in reference to that wee guy william the conqueror coming over in 1066 and conquering most of what is now modern England. He even wrote a book , the doomsday book , referring to his conquered possessions , and for three hundred years French monarchs ruled England as part of the angevin empire.
The point is everyone has owned a bit of everyones lands. Where do you stop?
When charlie takes his crown , one of his titles will be the "duke of normandy". Are we suggesting charlie takes a seat in the French parliament becuase of some old claim that has never been repealed but is completely unworkable in the modern age?
Maybe the citizens of Doncaster could take up thier franco scottish citizenship , and send delegates to the French parliament as well?
Come oan Vinny.
If i had a quid for every crackpot who has said that some ancient long forgotten and irrelevant treaty affects the modern world in some way or the other , i would be as rich as Borchester.
I appreciate you are emotional about the scottish independence issue , but you have to keep it real.
|
|
|
|
Post by Vinny on Jan 5, 2023 9:27:43 GMT
Then maybe Thomas, you'll understand that since 1707 there's been a union and England and Scotland are now part of the same sovereign country, the UK.
Scotland has consistently voted to remain in the UK.
Your beloved separatists are not getting the majority of votes in the Scottish elections.
Start thinking about what you can do, rather than dreaming about something you'll never do.
|
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Jan 5, 2023 11:03:53 GMT
Then maybe Thomas, you'll understand that since 1707 there's been a union and England and Scotland are now part of the same sovereign country, the UK. you are stating the obvious again except the country bit , which i would describe as multi country , or multi national state.
Consistently implies numerous times.
vinny is back to ranting while crystal ball gazing........
End the uk.
|
|
