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Post by totheleft3 on Jan 1, 2023 23:46:34 GMT
Funny I seem to be able to access the Article without a pay wall, it was widely reported in 2014 papers .
Some papers put there own twist on it .
So I went to the original source of the story .
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Post by Steve on Jan 2, 2023 0:52:52 GMT
Funny I seem to be able to access the Article without a pay wall, it was widely reported in 2014 papers . Some papers put there own twist on it . So I went to the original source of the story . It is behind a paywall, the NY Times allow a very few free reads a month per IP address But it is a fact that WMDs were found in Iraq after Saddam was defeated, not in any quantity however Saddam admitted to intending to restart WMD production and was complicit in creating the stories that he had many (he wanted to deter Iran invading) |
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Post by jonksy on Jan 2, 2023 2:37:39 GMT
Funny I seem to be able to access the Article without a pay wall, it was widely reported in 2014 papers . Some papers put there own twist on it . So I went to the original source of the story . It is behind a paywall, the NY Times allow a very few free reads a month per IP address B ut it is a fact that WMDs were found in Iraq after Saddam was defeated, Total bollocks, it is far from FACT. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2023 7:36:27 GMT
A kneejerk extremist response amounting to a calculated undermining of civil liberties, liberties designed to protect us from a state sanctioned regime of detention without charge or trial. He wanted 90 days without charge. 90 days! That is tantamount to a 3 month prison sentence without conviction or even enough evidence to charge. Where there are the safeguards for the innocent wrongly suspected? If we allow terrorists to provoke the abandonment of our civil liberties in the name of security, then they have already scored a victory. When others were calling for far more extreme responses to people being mass murdered on our streets it is really out of order to claim that policy the security services needed was any for of extremism You may not like it but to most people it really was the least worst of the options when it was realised just how in our face and lethal domestic terrorism had become. There will always be those who don't give a hoot about civil liberties who will call for more extreme measures. Trying to get 90 days incarceration on suspicion only without even enough evidence to charge is draconian to the point of being extremist. Those prepared to sacrifice liberty in the name of security often end up with neither. New Labour was notorious for its authoritarian control freak tendencies. At the time on civil liberties it moved so far to the right that even Tories like David Davis were attacking it from the left. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2023 7:39:12 GMT
Funny I seem to be able to access the Article without a pay wall, it was widely reported in 2014 papers . Some papers put there own twist on it . So I went to the original source of the story . Well it is behind a paywall for me so thus cannot constitute evidence presented to me. Besides, if WMD are not declared to be found, the invasion was still illegal. |
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Post by Steve on Jan 2, 2023 11:27:49 GMT
It is behind a paywall, the NY Times allow a very few free reads a month per IP address B ut it is a fact that WMDs were found in Iraq after Saddam was defeated, Total bollocks, it is far from FACT. You've had this before but you're still in denial, some of those WMDs fell into the hands of the post war terrorist groups and they even detonated one as an IED (but being thick they didn't know how to make it work as a nerve gas weapon) |
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Post by thomas on Jan 2, 2023 11:37:33 GMT
corbyn was the moderate and the blairites the extreme. Only to the very extreme hard left or right. No rational view of UK politics considers centre ground policies to be extreme. the blairtes arent centrist in scotland. They are to the right.
so i would disagree with you . talking of uk politics when there is a clear difference in political opinion between all four nations is as vague as talking about european politics.
What might be considered centre in your country may be well to the right in others.
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Post by Steve on Jan 2, 2023 11:40:02 GMT
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Post by thomas on Jan 2, 2023 11:41:08 GMT
corbyn was the moderate and the blairites the extreme. LOL   you may laugh , but the term "moderate " is in the eye of the beholder.
New labour and the blairites have done far more harm to me , my family and country than corbyn ever did , so clearly im not laughing when it comes to blairism.
Remember the old saying see 2 , he who laughs last laughs longest.........
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Post by Steve on Jan 2, 2023 11:42:10 GMT
Only to the very extreme hard left or right. No rational view of UK politics considers centre ground policies to be extreme. the blairtes arent centrist in scotland. They are to the right.
so i would disagree with you . talking of uk politics when there is a clear difference in political opinion between all four nations is as vague as talking about european politics.
What might be considered centre in your country may be well to the right in others.
But 'being to the right' (not that I agree with that) isn't extremist is it Blair championed increased spending on education and health, the Human Rights Act and providing benefits to the low paid. Hardly right wing policies and the Tories duly opposed them. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 2, 2023 11:44:12 GMT
When others were calling for far more extreme responses to people being mass murdered on our streets it is really out of order to claim that policy the security services needed was any for of extremism You may not like it but to most people it really was the least worst of the options when it was realised just how in our face and lethal domestic terrorism had become. There will always be those who don't give a hoot about civil liberties who will call for more extreme measures. Trying to get 90 days incarceration on suspicion only without even enough evidence to charge is draconian to the point of being extremist. Those prepared to sacrifice liberty in the name of security often end up with neither. New Labour was notorious for its authoritarian control freak tendencies. At the time on civil liberties it moved so far to the right that even Tories like David Davis were attacking it from the left. this book is on my list ......
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Post by thomas on Jan 2, 2023 11:49:55 GMT
the blairtes arent centrist in scotland. They are to the right.
so i would disagree with you . talking of uk politics when there is a clear difference in political opinion between all four nations is as vague as talking about european politics.
What might be considered centre in your country may be well to the right in others.
But 'being to the right' (not that I agree with that) isn't extremist is it no , you insinuated the centre ground (defined differently in different countires) is where moderation is , and by default either left or right from that is growing increasingly extreme to the end destination of either hard left or hard right.
The point is , blairites arent seen as "moderates" in scotland , whatever your personal view of them. Corbyn was seen more as a moderate , towards the old labour scotland ritually used to vote for in decades gone by.
The blairites might be the "centrist" darlings of the middle english suburbs of the home counties , but not elsewhere , hence why they have big trouble in scotland and northern england for example.
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Post by thomas on Jan 2, 2023 12:01:07 GMT
the blairtes arent centrist in scotland. They are to the right.
so i would disagree with you . talking of uk politics when there is a clear difference in political opinion between all four nations is as vague as talking about european politics.
What might be considered centre in your country may be well to the right in others.
But 'being to the right' (not that I agree with that) isn't extremist is it Blair championed increased spending on education and health, the Human Rights Act and providing benefits to the low paid. Hardly right wing policies and the Tories duly opposed them. Tony blairs 1997 manifesto was quite not obviously as right wing as the policies his government later implemented. I find it hard though for anyone to say blairs new labour were anything but a fag papers to the left of the tories on most issues if at all.
Remember like it or not this was the guy who lost labour four million voters between 97 and 05 even before browns financial crash
This old article discusses the fallacy of tony blairs new labour , and at the time the rise of ukip , with chilling accuracy....
wingsoverscotland.com/why-labour-are-to-blame-for-ukip/#more-33702
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Post by Steve on Jan 2, 2023 12:53:48 GMT
So you forget that Blair devolved much power to Scotland
Ho hum
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Post by thomas on Jan 2, 2023 13:14:21 GMT
So you forget that Blair devolved much power to Scotland Ho hum No , the council of europe devolved power to scotland , which as alistair campbell mentions in his memoirs blair was fully against calling it a damn nuisance.....
good read on events here steve...
The council of europes threat to expell the uk if it failed to democratise first landed on john majors lap , and he was kicked out before he could deal with it.
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