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Post by Orac on Oct 14, 2022 9:58:41 GMT
Morgan, so what things do you feel need to be trimmed down so nobody suffers?
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Post by petenz on Oct 14, 2022 10:58:57 GMT
This was the argument that the Labour Party put forward at the start of the NHS - a free health service would make everyone healthier and thus over time demand for healthcare (and therefore cost) would fall. 75 years later we are spending 12% of GDP on the NHS and have record numbers of workers out of a job and on long term sickness welfare... Isn't much of the rise in spending on the NHS due to the ageing population as a result of the post-war baby boom? The current top-heavy nature of the elderly and retired outstripping the younger workforce might indicate how successful the NHS has been since its inception. As I see it, the problem is not with the NHS but rather the decline in younger population able to support such a system, but this is no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater and de-fund the health system. The Chinese are already facing this dilemma (too many old vs. not enough young) and hence lifted their one-child policy - possibly too late. It needs to be decided which Social Services need to be ring-fenced and I believe the NHS is a prime candidate to ensure a future healthy workforce. Anyway, what happened to all the money saved by leaving the EU and now available for funding?  |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Oct 14, 2022 11:08:20 GMT
But, as a society, we are spending money faster than we are accumulating it. That's not a situation that can last. Sorry. It's not necessary for anyone to suffer to help support those in need. And Bingo, well done.
Now, which ones do you suggest that we cut?
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Post by sword on Oct 14, 2022 11:50:26 GMT
I think most of you talk a load of bollocks about welfare and benefits. You admit yourselves that you have no experience of dealing with these people. Of course there are some scammers and fiddlers claiming welfare they shouldn't. Of course some people don't try hard enough to find work. But you aren't going to tell me there aren't millions of employed people fiddling their hours of work, arriving late, going home early, nicking stuff, pulling sickies, and the self employed robbing the tax man etc. are you? And of course, you all know or have heard of the legendary the man in the pub or at the bus stop boasting about his "free car" and how much he's earning on the side while working. Well unfortunately life's not like that when you have to claim welfare. There are strict rules about looking for work, and strict medical checks for those claiming sickness benefit. If you think it's easy to claim welfare, try it. But still irrelevant because, as I said: We will never raise enough tax from the net contributors to pay for all this stuff. So how does the rest of the developed world manage? |
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Post by sword on Oct 14, 2022 11:52:36 GMT
If everyone that is fit and able did work and pay their taxes as millions have for years, there would be more money for the genuinely sick and infirm to be looked after better, that is what the system is all about, but it has been abused for years, anyone who does not know that is not living in the real world Abused by who? |
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baff
Junior Member
Posts: 75
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Post by baff on Oct 14, 2022 12:13:26 GMT
This was the argument that the Labour Party put forward at the start of the NHS - a free health service would make everyone healthier and thus over time demand for healthcare (and therefore cost) would fall. 75 years later we are spending 12% of GDP on the NHS and have record numbers of workers out of a job and on long term sickness welfare... Isn't much of the rise in spending on the NHS due to the ageing population as a result of the post-war baby boom? The current top-heavy nature of the elderly and retired outstripping the younger workforce might indicate how successful the NHS has been since its inception. As I see it, the problem is not with the NHS but rather the decline in younger population able to support such a system, but this is no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater and de-fund the health system. The Chinese are already facing this dilemma (too many old vs. not enough young) and hence lifted their one-child policy - possibly too late. It needs to be decided which Social Services need to be ring-fenced and I believe the NHS is a prime candidate to ensure a future healthy workforce. Anyway, what happened to all the money saved by leaving the EU and now available for funding? It's a rise in available treatments and taxable wealth. The NHS has been no more or less successful than any other first world health system. Which all have the very same issue. Resources are not infinite and everything costs money that could be spent on other more important things. As for the money saved leaving the EU, Boris already spent it on the NHS and then some. |
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Post by Steve on Oct 14, 2022 12:30:50 GMT
We have an ageing population, we have priced so many people out of the housing market, we are now pricing many out of the rental market and we acquiesce in so many being unemployed or deemed unemployable
Are we really surprised then that the benefits + NHS bill is so much of our GDP?
We can cut the first part of that but the best and only socially conscionable way of doing that is to get more people into work and more people into decent paid work. But time after time as a society we reject measures that would do such.
But don't blame those that rely on benefits, in the vast majority they would far rather be in decent paid work able to afford a decent roof over their head and meal on the table from their own wages. Blame the men and women in our own mirrors first.
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Post by petenz on Oct 14, 2022 12:38:00 GMT
What is more important than people's health and welfare? (Dammit! Haven't got the hang of shortening the post I'm replying to yet.) |
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Post by Steve on Oct 14, 2022 14:40:01 GMT
. . . (Dammit! Haven't got the hang of shortening the post I'm replying to yet.) Use the BBCode tab at the bottom of the text posting box. It then becomes just like back on the old site |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Oct 14, 2022 14:52:52 GMT
...the best and only socially conscionable way of doing that is to get more people into work and more people into decent paid work... Well, with 1.3 million unfilled job vacancies that shouldn't be too difficult. So what's the plan? |
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Post by petenz on Oct 14, 2022 14:56:41 GMT
. . . (Dammit! Haven't got the hang of shortening the post I'm replying to yet.) Use the BBCode tab at the bottom of the text posting box. It then becomes just like back on the old site Cheers.  |
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baff
Junior Member
Posts: 75
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Post by baff on Oct 14, 2022 15:00:56 GMT
What is more important than people's health and welfare? (Dammit! Haven't got the hang of shortening the post I'm replying to yet.) Food, water, security and heating for starters. Employment is usually a higher concern than the NHS or welfare also. For healthy people the NHS is low on the list. For employed/wealthy people welfare is low on the list. And that is most people with neither at the top of their list. Roads is obviously more important for rural people who can't even get healthcare without them. And so on. If you are currently using the NHS to keep you alive it's going to be right up there after food, drink and warmth I expect. The prosperity of ones children is very often a higher priority than ones own personal well being. I'm pretty sure we can think of things that are more important to us. |
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Post by petenz on Oct 14, 2022 15:11:49 GMT
Food, water, security and heating for starters. [/quote] Do they not count as 'Health and Welfare'? |
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Post by Orac on Oct 14, 2022 15:19:14 GMT
Do they not count as 'Health and Welfare'? Not usually. If you get philosophical about it, I guess everything humans want comes under the general heading 'welfare' |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Oct 14, 2022 15:47:45 GMT
having worked in the public sector with its prodigious waste Oct 13, 2022 11:40:05 GMT 1 The Squeezed Middle said: I speak as someone who has never been out of work since leaving school. I've never claimed benefits, lived in social housing or used social services and my contact with the NHS has been minimal. Of course, some will say I've been lucky. I'd say that I don't look to others to solve my problems. But it seems to me that there are too many who do look to the state to run their lives for them. And it's that culture of dependency that we need to tackle. Many state jobs are a job for life. You have indeed looked to the state with its prodigious waste to solve your income problem. |
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