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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Oct 13, 2022 10:40:05 GMT
Every day we read of shortcomings in our public services: The NHS, Social Services, Welfare, Education, Emergency Services etc. etc. are, we're told, all going to Hell in a handcart and the answer is always “More money”.
But I wonder if we'd really be prepared for the sort of tax rises that would be required to deliver the services that “We” claim to want. I'd suggest at least a doubling of taxes and even then, having worked in the public sector with its prodigious waste, it seems unlikely that would do the trick.
So since it's doubtful that we can fix the supply side, perhaps we need to look at the demand.
I speak as someone who has never been out of work since leaving school. I've never claimed benefits, lived in social housing or used social services and my contact with the NHS has been minimal.
Of course, some will say I've been lucky. I'd say that I don't look to others to solve my problems. But it seems to me that there are too many who do look to the state to run their lives for them. And it's that culture of dependency that we need to tackle.
And it's not as if it's a big ask. Within living memory many state bodies (including the NHS) didn't even exist and people got on with it.
So perhaps it's time tell people to stand on their own feet, to provide fewer public services rather than demanding ever more tax.
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Post by Handyman on Oct 13, 2022 11:36:14 GMT
I have never relied on the State either even being made redundant in the mid 60's I found some work to tide me over until I found better paid work, I have never claimed Benefits (Dole) worked full time for over 50 years paid all my taxes and NI, yes, some people are luck others make their own luck.
I have had to use the NHS during that time but not often, however it is now under more strain than ever before due to the size of the population, we have chucked more and more money at it year after year that has not fixed its problems, it needs a complete reorganisation today it is still used a political point scoring football at every GE time that was stopped.
Time the Politicians made sure we get value for our hard-earned money.
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Post by Toreador on Oct 13, 2022 12:10:53 GMT
For two weeks I claimed dole money in 1966 due to building sites having to be closed down as a result of freezing weather. For those two weeks I got the princely sum of £8.00 when my mortgage repayments for that same period was over £10.
To answer the OP I think there has to be a change in how much we pay people before we can ask them to pay increased taxes. We also need to look at corporate giants, their investors and whether they are being over-rewarded. Recently Aldi became the 4th largest supermarket, relegating Morrisons; Aldi are privately owned as are Lidl.
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Post by Red Rackham on Oct 13, 2022 12:19:17 GMT
If 'relying on the state' means claiming benefits of any sort, then no, I have never relied on the state either, but I can see how someone could become benefit dependent. In spite of the 'nasty' tories, the benefits bill has doubled in 20 years from £106 billion in 2001/2, to £212 billion in 2020/1. With the benefits bill spiralling out of control it doesn't appear unduly difficult to claim benefits of some sort, and there are people out there who are experts at claiming benefits and know their way around the system very well.
The problem with cutting the benefits bill, and we have all seen it before, as soon as a tory minister mentions benefit cuts the Labour party go into meltdown and encourage the outraged left to join in which inevitably results in the 'nasty' party backing down. It's not impossible to change a culture of benefit dependency, but it can only happen if politicians grasp the nettle and refuse to be thrown of course by Labour and the left who generally support benefit dependency.
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Post by Orac on Oct 13, 2022 12:32:52 GMT
The problem with cutting the benefits bill, and we have all seen it before, as soon as a tory minister mentions benefit cuts the Labour party go into meltdown and encourage the outraged left to join in which inevitably results in the 'nasty' party backing down. It's not impossible to change a culture of benefit dependency, but it can only happen if politicians grasp the nettle and refuse to be thrown of course by Labour and the left who generally support benefit dependency. Yep - The issue being that it is far easier for everyone making the decision to allow it carry on at someone else's expense, rather than risk challenging it. If the number of 'beneficiaries' (clients) becomes large enough, it can become almost impossible to change through democracy. An unsustainable policy may continue to the point of destruction. I've thought for a while that people of working age, in receipt of long-term benefits, should not be able to vote . I also feel the benefits system isn't our largest structural problem. |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Oct 13, 2022 12:39:39 GMT
I agree, the problem is that it's across the whole public sector and I think that we are approaching, if we haven't already reached, the point of destruction.
I've worked in the public sector for years and demand for service always outstrips supply. We will never raise enough tax from the net contributors to pay for all this stuff and there is no magic money tree.
Labour or Tory, sooner or later, someone's going to have to say: "No".
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Post by Morgan on Oct 13, 2022 14:41:19 GMT
I think most of you talk a load of bollocks about welfare and benefits. You admit yourselves that you have no experience of dealing with these people. Of course there are some scammers and fiddlers claiming welfare they shouldn't. Of course some people don't try hard enough to find work.
But you aren't going to tell me there aren't millions of employed people fiddling their hours of work, arriving late, going home early, nicking stuff, pulling sickies, and the self employed robbing the tax man etc. are you?
And of course, you all know or have heard of the legendary the man in the pub or at the bus stop boasting about his "free car" and how much he's earning on the side while working.
Well unfortunately life's not like that when you have to claim welfare. There are strict rules about looking for work, and strict medical checks for those claiming sickness benefit. If you think it's easy to claim welfare, try it.
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Oct 13, 2022 15:56:57 GMT
I think most of you talk a load of bollocks about welfare and benefits. You admit yourselves that you have no experience of dealing with these people. Of course there are some scammers and fiddlers claiming welfare they shouldn't. Of course some people don't try hard enough to find work. But you aren't going to tell me there aren't millions of employed people fiddling their hours of work, arriving late, going home early, nicking stuff, pulling sickies, and the self employed robbing the tax man etc. are you? And of course, you all know or have heard of the legendary the man in the pub or at the bus stop boasting about his "free car" and how much he's earning on the side while working. Well unfortunately life's not like that when you have to claim welfare. There are strict rules about looking for work, and strict medical checks for those claiming sickness benefit. If you think it's easy to claim welfare, try it. But still irrelevant because, as I said: We will never raise enough tax from the net contributors to pay for all this stuff. |
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Post by Handyman on Oct 13, 2022 19:07:43 GMT
If everyone that is fit and able did work and pay their taxes as millions have for years, there would be more money for the genuinely sick and infirm to be looked after better, that is what the system is all about, but it has been abused for years, anyone who does not know that is not living in the real world
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Post by petenz on Oct 14, 2022 1:54:57 GMT
And it's not as if it's a big ask. Within living memory many state bodies (including the NHS) didn't even exist and people got on with it. and suffered debilitating illness and died early. Like yourself, I have never had recourse to use any support service other than the NHS. I do believe however, that such a service is valuable and worth saving and investing in as, at the very least, it ensures a healthier workforce which generates wealth. Certainly there are bludgers who take advantage of the system, especially the benefits system, but I imagine these are in the minority. |
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Post by Morgan on Oct 14, 2022 7:07:22 GMT
There is no possible way to justify people suffering and dying simply because of a lack of money.
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Post by Pacifico on Oct 14, 2022 7:12:07 GMT
And it's not as if it's a big ask. Within living memory many state bodies (including the NHS) didn't even exist and people got on with it. and suffered debilitating illness and died early. Like yourself, I have never had recourse to use any support service other than the NHS. I do believe however, that such a service is valuable and worth saving and investing in as, at the very least, it ensures a healthier workforce which generates wealth.Certainly there are bludgers who take advantage of the system, especially the benefits system, but I imagine these are in the minority. This was the argument that the Labour Party put forward at the start of the NHS - a free health service would make everyone healthier and thus over time demand for healthcare (and therefore cost) would fall. 75 years later we are spending 12% of GDP on the NHS and have record numbers of workers out of a job and on long term sickness welfare... |
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Post by Pacifico on Oct 14, 2022 7:13:06 GMT
There is no possible way to justify people suffering and dying simply because of a lack of money. everything in life is rationed.. |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Oct 14, 2022 8:20:13 GMT
There is no possible way to justify people suffering and dying simply because of a lack of money. But, as a society, we are spending money faster than we are accumulating it. That's not a situation that can last. Sorry. |
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Post by Morgan on Oct 14, 2022 9:27:11 GMT
There is no possible way to justify people suffering and dying simply because of a lack of money. But, as a society, we are spending money faster than we are accumulating it. That's not a situation that can last. Sorry. Then we need to shift our priorities. It's not necessary for anyone to suffer to help support those in need. |
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