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Post by jonksy on Dec 31, 2022 4:02:20 GMT
Its a waste of time trying to debate with you and your ilk. The NHS pay the wages from money supplied by the government. Tell me oh wise one how can the NHS managers employ a member of staff on wages that many can only dream of for some of their diversity BS? Unable to answer the points made. Never mind, I tried. Happy New Year. What point are you trying to make? |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 31, 2022 8:36:33 GMT
Unable to answer the points made. Never mind, I tried. Happy New Year. What point are you trying to make? Probably best to read the posts before answering. |
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Post by Fairsociety on Dec 31, 2022 10:30:29 GMT
What point are you trying to make? Probably best to read the posts before answering. Jonksy has answered the question more than once, he's pointed out this was a accident waiting to happen, they've known all along, but chose to do nothing.
As for governments dictating how much NHS workers are paid that is not the case.
NHS work in bands, depending on your band depends on what you are paid. 1-8, 8 obviously being the highest band.
It is not up to the government to categorise the banding or the pay structure for each band, all the government can enforce in the minimum wage, perhaps it's other posters who aren't reading the posts before they answer.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2022 10:30:30 GMT
THere is no going rate, which is why no one can supply one. Every job has a different going rate made up of; Education level needed, skills needed, hours required (Shifts, night, day) job desirability, stress and responsibility. No two jobs are the same. Most NHS staff I now want the pay rise as compensation for the stress involved in the job. If you made the job more pleasant you could get more applicants without offering more pay. At the moment nursing has such a bad reputation very few people want to do it, worse still once the reputation is earned every little thing that happens is seen as another sign of how dreadful the job is. It was not I who talked of them being paid above any going rate. That was Jonksy. And ever since then he has been utterly unable to define what he thinks the going rate to be nor on what basis does he determine that. I in fact suspect a throwaway comment uttered without thought, reflective more of mean-spirited emotional assumptions than any actual logical line of thinking. Yet of course he lacks the integrity to fess up, or the intellect to effectively double down I agree that skills, qualifications, responsibility, etc, etc, all matter in terms of pay rates for every individual job. And yes if the job of a nurse was more desirable, ie less onerous, more people would apply. But pay cannot be divorced from that. For over a decade now nurses have endured pay freezes or - at best - pitiful pay rises well below inflation. Their pay has thus been cut year on year in real terms. With their skills and qualifications it is possible to get much better paying jobs outside the NHS or abroad in places like Australia working for their health systems. Hence the recruitment and retention crisis. And this itself contributes massively to nurses being chronically overworked. More staff is thus key to making the job a less onerous one. But again, pay is a key factor here. Poor conditions are making the job ever more unattractive, but paying sufficiently to attract more staff is itself key to improving those conditions. As is for that matter increased investment in the NHS across the board. How we find the money for that is a whole new debate in itself. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2022 10:37:40 GMT
Well considering the NHS employs 1,376,190 staff, and given there is only 130,000 unfilled vacancies it just goes to show how many want jobs in the NHS. If working for the NHS is so low paid why are they employing so many staff? lol So because it is not as bad as you think it could be, you want to keep seeing their pay cut until it is? That is idiotic. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2022 10:41:07 GMT
Only 90% of what they need means long waiting lists. So they waste our money on contract staff at up to £2,500 a shift while watching qualified English as first language qualified medical staff poached by Oz and the USA The obvious explanation is it's because they're not paying the going rate. Waiting lists are nothing new. Their length is unprecedented. 12 years of Tory rule is proving disastrous for the NHS. Cue mean-spirited, niggardly, mini-rant about how it is all Labour's fault and the nurses are being greedy, lol |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 31, 2022 11:33:32 GMT
THere is no going rate, which is why no one can supply one. Every job has a different going rate made up of; Education level needed, skills needed, hours required (Shifts, night, day) job desirability, stress and responsibility. No two jobs are the same. Most NHS staff I now want the pay rise as compensation for the stress involved in the job. If you made the job more pleasant you could get more applicants without offering more pay. At the moment nursing has such a bad reputation very few people want to do it, worse still once the reputation is earned every little thing that happens is seen as another sign of how dreadful the job is. It was not I who talked of them being paid above any going rate. That was Jonksy. And ever since then he has been utterly unable to define what he thinks the going rate to be nor on what basis does he determine that. I in fact suspect a throwaway comment uttered without thought, reflective more of mean-spirited emotional assumptions than any actual logical line of thinking. Yet of course he lacks the integrity to fess up, or the intellect to effectively double down I agree that skills, qualifications, responsibility, etc, etc, all matter in terms of pay rates for every individual job. And yes if the job of a nurse was more desirable, ie less onerous, more people would apply. But pay cannot be divorced from that. For over a decade now nurses have endured pay freezes or - at best - pitiful pay rises well below inflation. Their pay has thus been cut year on year in real terms. With their skills and qualifications it is possible to get much better paying jobs outside the NHS or abroad in places like Australia working for their health systems. Hence the recruitment and retention crisis. And this itself contributes massively to nurses being chronically overworked. More staff is thus key to making the job a less onerous one. But again, pay is a key factor here. Poor conditions are making the job ever more unattractive, but paying sufficiently to attract more staff is itself key to improving those conditions. As is for that matter increased investment in the NHS across the board. How we find the money for that is a whole new debate in itself. I agree with every word of that. And would only add that my post was not directed at you, but rather the thread in general which seemed stuck on the 'going rate' which doesn't exist. |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 31, 2022 11:42:28 GMT
Probably best to read the posts before answering. Jonksy has answered the question more than once, he's pointed out this was a accident waiting to happen, they've known all along, but chose to do nothing.
As for governments dictating how much NHS workers are paid that is not the case.
NHS work in bands, depending on your band depends on what you are paid. 1-8, 8 obviously being the highest band.
It is not up to the government to categorise the banding or the pay structure for each band, all the government can enforce in the minimum wage, perhaps it's other posters who aren't reading the posts before they answer.
That would assume they knew we would vote to leave the EU. However I see your point about work bands (Did Jonsky specifically refer to this?) Could the NHS look at lowering high end wages to free up money for lower wages. I would need to see your numbers because evidence from private industry is that it doesn't add up. Firstly high end jobs sound like a lot of money, but when you divide it up among all the other jobs it is tiny. Secondly you struggle to get people to take on the sort of responsibility required in top jobs without matching that offered by private industry. Thirdly we are struggling to get GP's even though the wage is around a 100k |
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Post by Steve on Dec 31, 2022 11:59:31 GMT
I know one thing. If anyone knows the answer to this mess it isn't going to be someone who believes there's such a thing as an EUSSR. Ah bless...States someone who cannot see a dictatorship uder their own nose. I could if there were one in the EU but then I know what a dictatorship is and there isn't. Ironically to your attempt at thread diversion, the pseudo dictatorship most relevant to this topic is the NHS imposing limited wage rises rather than letting market forces apply. |
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Post by patman post on Dec 31, 2022 12:08:25 GMT
Doctors’ and Dentists’ Remuneration Body (DDRB) publishes recommended pay ranges for salaried doctors:
England £65,070 to £98,194
Scotland £61,346 to £91,564
Northern Ireland £63,170 to £95,325
Wales £63,803 to £96,278
These don't seem particularly high given the training needed and responsibilities involved.
In fact, the BMA called for a pay award of RPI + 2% as an initial step towards closing the real terms pay erosion that doctors have faced over the past decade...
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Post by Bentley on Dec 31, 2022 12:54:22 GMT
Sack all of the diversity officers and any other offices that are deemed not directly necessary to the efficiency of the NHS.
Commission a two year time and motion efficiency /productivity study and restructure the NHS according to the results .
And if we ever suffer another pandemic , don’t applaud the NHS . There was only a few of them that were directly in danger ,the last time .
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Post by jonksy on Dec 31, 2022 13:44:34 GMT
Waiting lists are nothing new. Their length is unprecedented. 12 years of Tory rule is proving disastrous for the NHS. Cue mean-spirited, niggardly, mini-rant about how it is all Labour's fault and the nurses are being greedy, lol What’s mean about pouring billions of your and mine money into a bottomless pit? |
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Post by jonksy on Dec 31, 2022 13:48:51 GMT
Ah bless...States someone who cannot see a dictatorship uder their own nose. I could if there were one in the EU but then I know what a dictatorship is and there isn't. Ironically to your attempt at thread diversion, the pseudo dictatorship most relevant to this topic is the NHS imposing limited wage rises rather than letting market forces apply. Excuse me where is the attempted thread diversion in pointing out there FACT that the UK were very content employing cheap foreign labour to the detriment of our work force? I never heard you or your ilks faux indignation then and neither did anyone else. |
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Post by Steve on Dec 31, 2022 13:52:39 GMT
I could if there were one in the EU but then I know what a dictatorship is and there isn't. Ironically to your attempt at thread diversion, the pseudo dictatorship most relevant to this topic is the NHS imposing limited wage rises rather than letting market forces apply. Excuse me where is the attempted thread diversion in pointing out there FACT that the UK were very content employing cheap foreign labour to the detriment of our work force? I never heard you or your ilks faux indignation then and neither did anyone else. Well here for a start: . . .Telll me oh wiseman how the fuck does that regulate the GOING RATE? We have a shortage of ALL skills. Take my trade for example the rate down here for brickies is £600 to £700 per day and this is a LOW INCOME area. Let’s not even mention Plumbers, Sparkies, Carpenters etc etc. Your beloved EUSSR . . . |
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Post by jonksy on Dec 31, 2022 13:54:40 GMT
Jonksy has answered the question more than once, he's pointed out this was a accident waiting to happen, they've known all along, but chose to do nothing.
As for governments dictating how much NHS workers are paid that is not the case.
NHS work in bands, depending on your band depends on what you are paid. 1-8, 8 obviously being the highest band.
It is not up to the government to categorise the banding or the pay structure for each band, all the government can enforce in the minimum wage, perhaps it's other posters who aren't reading the posts before they answer.
That would assume they knew we would vote to leave the EU. However I see your point about work bands (Did Jonsky specifically refer to this?) Could the NHS look at lowering high end wages to free up money for lower wages. I would need to see your numbers because evidence from private industry is that it doesn't add up. Firstly high end jobs sound like a lot of money, but when you divide it up among all the other jobs it is tiny. Secondly you struggle to get people to take on the sort of responsibility required in top jobs without matching that offered by private industry. Thirdly we are struggling to get GP's even though the wage is around a 100k It’s very simple to those who have a modicum of grey matter. I have asked you were are anyone else employed for working just 3 days a week and have 4 days off. I asked you how many in the private sector can say fuck it I am not going in today or their full shift and get paid the full amount? |
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