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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2023 20:55:03 GMT
I think Westminster and even Nicola Sturgeon have figured out the mantra "A trans woman is a woman" is a load of horsecrap. Hence sending a trans woman aka MAN to a men's prison. you think this is an isolated case?
There is currently 6 transwomen serving time in yookay female prisons.
How many of those 6 are rapists with penises, Thomas. Stop calling me barry, please. |
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Post by research0it on Jan 26, 2023 21:07:48 GMT
Hi everyone
I do note that nearly all, or maybe all of these examples that are claimed to undermine the new transgender act, are related to the criminal justice system and jails
Which are a particular case, requiring particular rules outside the provisions of the 2004 uk act and the recent Scottish government act. Which no one would try and claim that those environments need special provisions. Maybe those special provisions are now wanting.
I cannot recall anyone bringing up any examples outside of that environment. They all seem to involve those who have been convicted or accused of a crime.
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Post by Pacifico on Jan 26, 2023 22:22:44 GMT
Hi everyone I do note that nearly all, or maybe all of these examples that are claimed to undermine the new transgender act, are related to the criminal justice system and jails Which are a particular case, requiring particular rules outside the provisions of the 2004 uk act and the recent Scottish government act. Which no one would try and claim that those environments need special provisions. Maybe those special provisions are now wanting. I cannot recall anyone bringing up any examples outside of that environment. They all seem to involve those who have been convicted or accused of a crime. Sensible amendments were posted to the Bill solving these issues - the SNP (and their supporters) rejected them. |
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Post by Pacifico on Jan 26, 2023 22:28:37 GMT
I dont think we are ever going to agree that if you increase the amount of transgender women you are going to increase the amount of men who take advantage of that Law to attack women - so lets just park that. With regards to the UK Government objections - I rather think they are the same as the majority of the population in Scotland who also object to this. Hi pacifico I agree I've said all I can say about the likely increase etc. - although my offer stands, find data that shows otherwise, that I couldn't find, and I'll admit I'm wrong. Remember also that the rapist case we're all discussing happened under the procedures and risk assessments pertaining to the 2004 uk act. If there is a failure, it's in the risk assessment procedure as the prisoner must have passed it to be held in a female prison. In terms of the uk government action, I don't know. They had 6 years to tip the wink to the scottish government, where they might go with this. Including 2 full rounds of consultation, undertaken by the Scottish government, in that time. They have "tipped that wink" before, on other issues and the Scottish government has stopped it's course of action. I would suggest that they've at least been clumsy as, had they "tipped that wink" before, then the issue would not be so distressing to the transgender community, who've had their hopes and expectations dashed at the very last. Also, the one fact I found in my research is that the USA has states that have this kind of legislation and some that don't. They seem to manage that, so why can't the uk? I suspect you're correct about where majority opinion is on this, but that doesn't itself make the new legislation wrong. I have already alluded to the understandable human emotions that play a part in public opinion. Even for myself, that photo of the big guy in a dress that was circulating, got to me and had the emotional part of my brain screaming "weirdo!". I think humans should try to get past such emotional responses, however Well they say all politics is a journey but even so - in a week Sturgeon has gone from a trans woman is a woman and they can self declare with no oversight, to there's no way this trans woman is a woman and they should be in a male prison. If even the supporters of the legislation cannot be consistent for more than a week it kinda suggest that there is something drastically wrong with that legislation. |
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Post by Vinny on Jan 26, 2023 22:30:09 GMT
Hi pacifico I agree I've said all I can say about the likely increase etc. - although my offer stands, find data that shows otherwise, that I couldn't find, and I'll admit I'm wrong. Remember also that the rapist case we're all discussing happened under the procedures and risk assessments pertaining to the 2004 uk act. If there is a failure, it's in the risk assessment procedure as the prisoner must have passed it to be held in a female prison. In terms of the uk government action, I don't know. They had 6 years to tip the wink to the scottish government, where they might go with this. Including 2 full rounds of consultation, undertaken by the Scottish government, in that time. They have "tipped that wink" before, on other issues and the Scottish government has stopped it's course of action. I would suggest that they've at least been clumsy as, had they "tipped that wink" before, then the issue would not be so distressing to the transgender community, who've had their hopes and expectations dashed at the very last. Also, the one fact I found in my research is that the USA has states that have this kind of legislation and some that don't. They seem to manage that, so why can't the uk? I suspect you're correct about where majority opinion is on this, but that doesn't itself make the new legislation wrong. I have already alluded to the understandable human emotions that play a part in public opinion. Even for myself, that photo of the big guy in a dress that was circulating, got to me and had the emotional part of my brain screaming "weirdo!". I think humans should try to get past such emotional responses, however Well they say all politics is a journey but even so - in a week Sturgeon has gone from a trans woman is a woman and they can self declare with no oversight, to there's no way this trans woman is a woman and they should be in a male prison. If even the supporters of the legislation cannot be consistent for more than a week it kinda suggest that there is something drastically wrong with that legislation. Spot on. All the more reason to block the Sturgeon Junta's insane law. |
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Post by Pacifico on Jan 26, 2023 23:03:35 GMT
To be fair, it's not just the SNP who are all over the place on this issue - Labour are a complete shambles as well.
Keir Starmer, April 2022: "Transwomen are women. And that's not just my view, that's actually the law."
and yet..
Yvette Cooper Jan 2023: “This dangerous rapist should not be in a women’s prison”
I must admit I'm getting confused - are these people women or not?
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Post by research0it on Jan 27, 2023 1:01:46 GMT
Hi pacifico I agree I've said all I can say about the likely increase etc. - although my offer stands, find data that shows otherwise, that I couldn't find, and I'll admit I'm wrong. Remember also that the rapist case we're all discussing happened under the procedures and risk assessments pertaining to the 2004 uk act. If there is a failure, it's in the risk assessment procedure as the prisoner must have passed it to be held in a female prison. In terms of the uk government action, I don't know. They had 6 years to tip the wink to the scottish government, where they might go with this. Including 2 full rounds of consultation, undertaken by the Scottish government, in that time. They have "tipped that wink" before, on other issues and the Scottish government has stopped it's course of action. I would suggest that they've at least been clumsy as, had they "tipped that wink" before, then the issue would not be so distressing to the transgender community, who've had their hopes and expectations dashed at the very last. Also, the one fact I found in my research is that the USA has states that have this kind of legislation and some that don't. They seem to manage that, so why can't the uk? I suspect you're correct about where majority opinion is on this, but that doesn't itself make the new legislation wrong. I have already alluded to the understandable human emotions that play a part in public opinion. Even for myself, that photo of the big guy in a dress that was circulating, got to me and had the emotional part of my brain screaming "weirdo!". I think humans should try to get past such emotional responses, however Well they say all politics is a journey but even so - in a week Sturgeon has gone from a trans woman is a woman and they can self declare with no oversight, to there's no way this trans woman is a woman and they should be in a male prison. If even the supporters of the legislation cannot be consistent for more than a week it kinda suggest that there is something drastically wrong with that legislation. Hi pacifico I believe that, in this particular case, the prison service had not completed the standard risk assessment which would determine the person's permanent prison. While it was carried out the person was held isolated in a female prison. The risk assessment concluded that the permanent prison was to be a male prison. All standard procedure under the 2004 uk transgender act and the 2010 equalities act. The procedure and risk assessment was nothing to do with the new act which, as you know, has not been implemented. That issue is getting confused with the issue of prisoner risk assessments and how robust they are. |
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Post by Pacifico on Jan 27, 2023 8:01:34 GMT
Well they say all politics is a journey but even so - in a week Sturgeon has gone from a trans woman is a woman and they can self declare with no oversight, to there's no way this trans woman is a woman and they should be in a male prison. If even the supporters of the legislation cannot be consistent for more than a week it kinda suggest that there is something drastically wrong with that legislation. Hi pacifico I believe that, in this particular case, the prison service had not completed the standard risk assessment which would determine the person's permanent prison. While it was carried out the person was held isolated in a female prison. The risk assessment concluded that the permanent prison was to be a male prison. All standard procedure under the 2004 uk transgender act and the 2010 equalities act. The procedure and risk assessment was nothing to do with the new act which, as you know, has not been implemented. That issue is getting confused with the issue of prisoner risk assessments and how robust they are. SPS policy is that you go to the prison in line with the gender you identify with. If you are considered a risk to other inmates you are subject to restrictions inside that institution. 'A male-to-female person in custody living permanently as a woman without genital surgery should be allocated to a female establishment.'By Sturgeon (and other politicians) saying that this 'woman' should be kept in a male prison they are admitting that transwomen are not real women. That being the case what is the rational for allowing anyone to self declare without a medical intervention - what is the Legislation trying to achieve?. All it will do is make it easier for men intent on harming women to enter womens safe spaces - the SPS has already said that GRC's are taken into account when determining where an inmate is sent. If this proposed Law were in place Bryson would already have GRC. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 27, 2023 9:02:55 GMT
you think this is an isolated case?
There is currently 6 transwomen serving time in yookay female prisons.
How many of those 6 are rapists with penises, Thomas. Stop calling me barry, please. ok. I apologise for using your name. We have known each other online for a decade or more , and old habits die hard. Accept my apologies.
Moving on , not sure about how many of the 6 have penises. Do you know?
What i have found is this...
Thankfully the scottish prison service followed due process with bryson , gave him/her the benefit of the doubt while assessing him/her in solitary , and after assessment , deemed him/her a risk and moved to a mans prison.
Unlike the above example in Conseravtive run England.
Let me know when someone wants to shout tory bad .
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Post by thomas on Jan 27, 2023 9:07:07 GMT
Well they say all politics is a journey but even so - in a week Sturgeon has gone from a trans woman is a woman and they can self declare with no oversight, to there's no way this trans woman is a woman and they should be in a male prison. If even the supporters of the legislation cannot be consistent for more than a week it kinda suggest that there is something drastically wrong with that legislation. Spot on. All the more reason to block the Sturgeon Junta's insane law. The bryson case has happened under british unionist labours 2004 law ,and the 2010 equality act.
"Sturgeons law" as you put it is in limbo , and hasnt received royal assent pending court action.
Looks like another snp bad story turning to dust .
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Post by Vinny on Jan 27, 2023 9:09:44 GMT
Even aspects of the 2010 "equality" act should be repealed.
There weren't the cases of male rapists in women's prisons until this self identification bollocks came in with the Conservative Lib Dem Coalition.
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Post by thomas on Jan 27, 2023 9:12:07 GMT
To be fair, it's not just the SNP who are all over the place on this issue - Labour are a complete shambles as well. Keir Starmer, April 2022: "Transwomen are women. And that's not just my view, that's actually the law." and yet.. Yvette Cooper Jan 2023: “This dangerous rapist should not be in a women’s prison” I must admit I'm getting confused - are these people women or not? and the tories. Did you ignore my caroline noakes article , as well as prominent support on this from theresa may , michael fabricant , and of course penny mordaunt ?
As ever pacifico , why let party loyalty or support get in the way of a good mud slinging contest?
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Post by Vinny on Jan 27, 2023 9:14:25 GMT
The SNP policy is a load of old shit, well done to the Tories for blocking it.
SNP OUT.
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Post by thomas on Jan 27, 2023 9:14:57 GMT
Even aspects of the 2010 "equality" act should be repealed. There weren't the cases of male rapists in women's prisons until this self identification bollocks came in with the Conservative Lib Dem Coalition. The point is in your desperation to slur the snp and scot indy over this , is the fact your own political parties , including both labour and tory , are fully behind this legislation.
A few tories and labour mps might be coming out looking for red meat for some of their own voter base , but the fact remains labour introduced trans legisaltion when in power at both holyrood and westmisnter , and the tories endorsed it , with perhaps the current tory leadership trying lamely to attempt to take the moral high ground much to the disgust of many of their own mps.
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Post by thomas on Jan 27, 2023 9:16:15 GMT
The SNP policy is a load of old shit, well done to the Tories for blocking it. SNP OUT. It hasnt been blocked yet , merely delayed. As i understand it , the snp are taking it to the council of europe , who may very well slap englandshire down.
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