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Post by Bentley on Jan 26, 2023 16:51:36 GMT
Sturgeon putting the bandwagon into reverse..” She said: "There is no automatic right for a trans woman convicted of a crime to serve their sentence in a female prison even if they have a gender recognition certificate.”. Hi Bentley That's not a reversal, just the way it's always been. Ever since the 2004 uk act. All transgender people in prison have to undergo a risk assessment, in order to be transferred to a different sex prison If they don't get the numbers on that assessment, then they don't get transferred You still don’t get it. There shouldn’t be a anything in place to reverse. |
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Post by research0it on Jan 26, 2023 17:03:10 GMT
Hi Bentley That's not a reversal, just the way it's always been. Ever since the 2004 uk act. All transgender people in prison have to undergo a risk assessment, in order to be transferred to a different sex prison If they don't get the numbers on that assessment, then they don't get transferred You still don’t get it. There shouldn’t be a anything in place to reverse. Hi Bentley If you want to argue that the 2004 uk act should be reversed, then on you go. But there is no difference on the procedure to assess whether someone should be transferred to a different sex prison under that act than under the Scottish one In fact it would probably be more difficult to obtain the risk assessment numbers under the Scottish act than under the uk act. When you think about it. Which seems a rare quality on this forum |
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Post by Bentley on Jan 26, 2023 17:10:32 GMT
You still don’t get it. There shouldn’t be a anything in place to reverse. Hi Bentley If you want to argue that the 2004 uk act should be reversed, then on you go. But there is no difference on the procedure to assess whether someone should be transferred to a different sex prison under that act than under the Scottish one In fact it would probably be more difficult to obtain the risk assessment numbers under the Scottish act than under the uk act. When you think about it. Which seems a rare quality on this forum Then maybe you should of thought before you posted this …you “Let's examine this. What I'm now going to write is not fact based but speculation. But you then tell me if it COULD at least be plausible. So there seems to be a few crimes that you get beaten up for, even these days. Paedophilia, rapes and murder of minors jumps to mind. So this person is going to prison for rape. He thinks he'll get beaten up and the state will fail to protect him. So he pretends he's transgender, not to gain access to women, but to move to an environment where he thinks he's less likely to get beaten up. Maybe, maybe not?” |
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Post by Pacifico on Jan 26, 2023 18:29:24 GMT
I'm pointing out that government departments are quite willing to lie about the size of the problem. If you are going to base your argument on statistics produced by organisations who are actively promoting these policies then I would suggest you be a tad more skeptical. With regards to Scotland specifically - the SPS does not hold information on whether any incidents have occurred of transgender prisoners who have transferred to woman's prison facilities going on to commit violence against female inmates, which is considered ‘a matter for the Procurator Fiscal’. If you are not recording any instances of attacks or harassment then for sure the statistics are not going to show any attacks or harassment. Hi pacifico How do you know that they're linked to pro transgender movements? One is Time magazine. I also cross referenced to other sources in other countries and the evidence all pointed one way. But if you're sceptical then prove me wrong give me links to big numbers studies, from countries that has passed this legislation, showing an increase in predatory activities, following the legislation. I'm fairly certain you won't find it. Because I've tried and failed to find it. Sometimes what you can't find tells you as much as what you do. I've been all over the feminist sides that tried to block the legislation, and their evidence is individual examples. Nothing else. Even examples that have dubious connectivity with this issue. For example linking peadophiles with transgender issues. Which just throws bogeymen in. I can give you links galore if you want. Despite all I have written, I'm going to concede something. All my evidence will not stop many women FEELING less safe, if this legislation eventually gets through. That feeling may not be based on much, but it will still be there. How much weight you put on that, I don't know. Finally, on rereading one of my links, something struck me. Some states in the USA have this type of legislation and some don't, and they appear to handle it. Makes one think about the UK government objections? I dont think we are ever going to agree that if you increase the amount of transgender women you are going to increase the amount of men who take advantage of that Law to attack women - so lets just park that. With regards to the UK Government objections - I rather think they are the same as the majority of the population in Scotland who also object to this. |
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Post by research0it on Jan 26, 2023 18:52:41 GMT
Hi blackiswhite So where's your data then? That disproves my point. Which is not the point that your statement argues with. You are wriggling, squirming and dancing around the issue, because you've been defeated in your argument. Hi blackiswhite Your opinion only. I'll be defeated by data that proves me wrong. Nothing else. Who'sdancing? I've said the same thing all through. The data I've seen supports my view and I'll need other more persuasive data to change my mind. Go get it. |
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Post by research0it on Jan 26, 2023 18:56:04 GMT
Hi ratcliff Let's examine this. What I'm now going to write is not fact based but speculation. But you then tell me if it COULD at least be plausible. So there seems to be a few crimes that you get beaten up for, even these days. Paedophilia, rapes and murder of minors jumps to mind. So this person is going to prison for rape. He thinks he'll get beaten up and the state will fail to protect him. So he pretends he's transgender, not to gain access to women, but to move to an environment where he thinks he's less likely to get beaten up. Maybe, maybe not? It’s the leftie gift to rapists that keeps on giving . Sanctuary from other males, constant source of female company , potential opportunity to predate …making many vulnerable in a cause to protect the few self perceived victims . Hi Bentley No, it's not a leftie thing, it's the current system Under the 2004 uk act, if you want to be moved to another sex prison as a transgender, then you must pass a risk assessment test. |
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Post by research0it on Jan 26, 2023 19:11:56 GMT
Hi pacifico How do you know that they're linked to pro transgender movements? One is Time magazine. I also cross referenced to other sources in other countries and the evidence all pointed one way. But if you're sceptical then prove me wrong give me links to big numbers studies, from countries that has passed this legislation, showing an increase in predatory activities, following the legislation. I'm fairly certain you won't find it. Because I've tried and failed to find it. Sometimes what you can't find tells you as much as what you do. I've been all over the feminist sides that tried to block the legislation, and their evidence is individual examples. Nothing else. Even examples that have dubious connectivity with this issue. For example linking peadophiles with transgender issues. Which just throws bogeymen in. I can give you links galore if you want. Despite all I have written, I'm going to concede something. All my evidence will not stop many women FEELING less safe, if this legislation eventually gets through. That feeling may not be based on much, but it will still be there. How much weight you put on that, I don't know. Finally, on rereading one of my links, something struck me. Some states in the USA have this type of legislation and some don't, and they appear to handle it. Makes one think about the UK government objections? I dont think we are ever going to agree that if you increase the amount of transgender women you are going to increase the amount of men who take advantage of that Law to attack women - so lets just park that. With regards to the UK Government objections - I rather think they are the same as the majority of the population in Scotland who also object to this. Hi pacifico I agree I've said all I can say about the likely increase etc. - although my offer stands, find data that shows otherwise, that I couldn't find, and I'll admit I'm wrong. Remember also that the rapist case we're all discussing happened under the procedures and risk assessments pertaining to the 2004 uk act. If there is a failure, it's in the risk assessment procedure as the prisoner must have passed it to be held in a female prison. In terms of the uk government action, I don't know. They had 6 years to tip the wink to the scottish government, where they might go with this. Including 2 full rounds of consultation, undertaken by the Scottish government, in that time. They have "tipped that wink" before, on other issues and the Scottish government has stopped it's course of action. I would suggest that they've at least been clumsy as, had they "tipped that wink" before, then the issue would not be so distressing to the transgender community, who've had their hopes and expectations dashed at the very last. Also, the one fact I found in my research is that the USA has states that have this kind of legislation and some that don't. They seem to manage that, so why can't the uk? I suspect you're correct about where majority opinion is on this, but that doesn't itself make the new legislation wrong. I have already alluded to the understandable human emotions that play a part in public opinion. Even for myself, that photo of the big guy in a dress that was circulating, got to me and had the emotional part of my brain screaming "weirdo!". I think humans should try to get past such emotional responses, however |
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Post by thomas on Jan 26, 2023 19:36:29 GMT
Out of interest I have looked at the details of this in the Scottish papers, the Daily Record is not renowned for it's right wing bias, so looking at the comments (over 150 or so) published I was mildly surprised to see the condemnation of Sturgeon and MSPs, virtually every commentator was scathing and many expressed support for Westminster, so don't pull our legs with your wishful thinking, here is the evidence. www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/transgender-scot-found-guilty-raping-29037424#comments-wrapper So we are now dismissing polls when it suits but looking at the comments section of a unionist newspaper for back up? 
The daily record sells around 61 000 copies per issue. That barely over 1 % of the scottish popualtion. It is , and always has been a unionist rag that supports the labour party. Its often nicknamed "the daily redcoat" such is its unionist bias in scotland for those few hardy souls that still read it.
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Post by thomas on Jan 26, 2023 19:47:32 GMT
more empty words to feebly attmept to cover your lies.
If you believe i have changed my words , then please quote me where i have changed. Once again , if you cant back up your lies , then we can dismiss what you say as ever .
I havent once claimed the scottish parliament controls uk passports.
When one of your lies goes wrong , and is found out , best to stop the digging.
As I think I have said somewhere before, I am not going to engage in any such behaviour with or for you. All that does is give an impression that there might be some credibility to your wriggling and squirming, when there is none whatsoever. However, your last paragraph above is sound advice - so you should take it. NO DIGNITY...NO HUMILITY...NO INTEGRITY..........NO WRIGGLEROOM! i havent laughed so hard since jo swinson lost her seat .
You the guy who arrogantly told this forum you would have moved your paper round out of scotland ( and your wee storage business ) as though anyone gives a fack talking about lack of humility in others?
You have been threatening across a few different forums to throw your toys out of your pram since prior to 2011 if the scottish and english kept voting
1. SNP. Salmond went on to win a landslide in 2011 , and the snp every subsequent election , you stayed put and kept whinging.
2. If scotland went independent.
3. If England dared vote brexit.
Two of the three things happened , and you are still on political forums crying to the amusement of others who dont share you lame political views that life isnt fair and you are going to move if you dont get your way.
Talk about lack of self awareness in what you post.
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Post by thomas on Jan 26, 2023 19:56:29 GMT
Of which the resident trans champion(s) should be objecting to? Surely the Scottish authorities are denying ‘her’ human rights ? Hi Bently. No they arent denying any human rights.
When someone is sentenced in scotland ( as im sure england and elsewhere) they are sent to a prison assessment wing to be assessed and gain their prisoner category.
Most prisoners will start at cat B , the headcases who are a danger to others will get cat A , with cat C being less restrictive and D what you need to gain an open prison. This individual was sent to cornton vale , kept in isolation for a short period while being assessed , to save him being a danger to female prisoners despite allegedly wishing to transition himself , and then upon the risk assessment has been sent elsewhere to serve his sentence in a mens prison.
The scottish prison service have upheld his human rights , followed due process , and upon assessment deemed him fit to serve time in a mans prison.
None of this is impacted by the proposed legislation that has stalled going through the scottish parliament but is as a result of previous legisaltion passsed in 2004 and 2010.
A political storm in a tory tea cup.
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Post by thomas on Jan 26, 2023 20:01:46 GMT
Hi blackiswhite I could give you links galore from other sources and countries. The data all points the same way. So they're all biased? Anyway I give you the same challenge as pacifico. Prove me wrong. Find big picture data from those countries I mentioned that show evidence that backs your case. Not individual examples. I've tried to find it and failed. OK, I'll take that as a "no". Which is a logical position to take as a man cannot become a woman by choice. Chromosomes cannot be changed, regardless of "links galore". you are correct of course barry. Men cannot become women no matter how many ops they have , as anyone with any medical experience will know.
As i understand it though , there is a medically recognised dysphoria regarding gender dysphoria , which of course all governments are trying to tread carefully around , including westmisnter , to help there people transition who feel they have been born in the wrong body.
I dont think the majority of folk really give a feck what guy dresses as a woman ,or vice versa , and some may even feel sorrow upon hearing some of the stories.
What the issue is that many countries areound the world are struggling with is balancing womans rights with trans rights , and trying to find a middle ground and guarentee safety.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2023 20:16:06 GMT
OK, I'll take that as a "no". Which is a logical position to take as a man cannot become a woman by choice. Chromosomes cannot be changed, regardless of "links galore". you are correct of course barry. Men cannot become women no matter how many ops they have , as anyone with any medical experience will know.
As i understand it though , there is a medically recognised dysphoria regarding gender dysphoria , which of course all governments are trying to tread carefully around , including westmisnter , to help there people transition who feel they have been born in the wrong body.
I dont think the majority of folk really give a feck what guy dresses as a woman ,or vice versa , and some may even feel sorrow upon hearing some of the stories.
What the issue is that many countries areound the world are struggling with is balancing womans rights with trans rights , and trying to find a middle ground and guarentee safety.
I think Westminster and even Nicola Sturgeon have figured out the mantra "A trans woman is a woman" is a load of horsecrap. Hence sending a trans woman aka MAN to a men's prison. They should change their mantra to "A trans woman is a woman if and when politically expedient" Then they might start treated their dysphoria as a mental illness instead of giving them drugs and surgery. Unfortunately there is a bit of a shortage of talking therapy appointment after people were damaged by the lockdowns. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 26, 2023 20:24:29 GMT
you are correct of course barry. Men cannot become women no matter how many ops they have , as anyone with any medical experience will know.
As i understand it though , there is a medically recognised dysphoria regarding gender dysphoria , which of course all governments are trying to tread carefully around , including westmisnter , to help there people transition who feel they have been born in the wrong body.
I dont think the majority of folk really give a feck what guy dresses as a woman ,or vice versa , and some may even feel sorrow upon hearing some of the stories.
What the issue is that many countries areound the world are struggling with is balancing womans rights with trans rights , and trying to find a middle ground and guarentee safety.
I think Westminster and even Nicola Sturgeon have figured out the mantra "A trans woman is a woman" is a load of horsecrap. Hence sending a trans woman aka MAN to a men's prison. you think this is an isolated case?
There is currently 6 transwomen serving time in yookay female prisons.
The tory government in westmsinter is respnsible for english and welsh prisons barry , yet i dont hear a beep out of the ususal snp bashers on here about that fact. Seems its not just a scottish "problem."...
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Post by happyjack on Jan 26, 2023 20:28:31 GMT
As I think I have said somewhere before, I am not going to engage in any such behaviour with or for you. All that does is give an impression that there might be some credibility to your wriggling and squirming, when there is none whatsoever. However, your last paragraph above is sound advice - so you should take it. NO DIGNITY...NO HUMILITY...NO INTEGRITY..........NO WRIGGLEROOM! i havent laughed so hard since jo swinson lost her seat .
You the guy who arrogantly told this forum you would have moved your paper round out of scotland ( and your wee storage business ) as though anyone gives a fack talking about lack of humility in others?
You have been threatening across a few different forums to throw your toys out of your pram since prior to 2011 if the scottish and english kept voting
1. SNP. Salmond went on to win a landslide in 2011 , and the snp every subsequent election , you stayed put and kept whinging.
2. If scotland went independent.
3. If England dared vote brexit.
Two of the three things happened , and you are still on political forums crying to the amusement of others who dont share you lame political views that life isnt fair and you are going to move if you dont get your way.
Talk about lack of self awareness in what you post.
You are obviously not laughing (unless you are seriously disturbed) but pretend that you are if that’s what you choose to do to help you avoid facing up to what you are. FYI - this, and its immediate predecessor which we both transferred over from, are the only 2 politics forums that I have ever been on - and I only joined the old forum 15 months or so ago, so not only are you getting torn apart by a novice here but this is another example (as if we needed it) of your embarrassingly poor powers of deduction ...and, btw, you have cracked that very same tired old Jo Swinson line umpteen times now. I have no idea why you think that her getting dumped should pain me; she got what she deserved! NO DIGNITY...NO HUMILITY...NO INTEGRITY.......NO HOPER ! |
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Post by thomas on Jan 26, 2023 20:32:10 GMT
i havent laughed so hard since jo swinson lost her seat .
You the guy who arrogantly told this forum you would have moved your paper round out of scotland ( and your wee storage business ) as though anyone gives a fack talking about lack of humility in others?
You have been threatening across a few different forums to throw your toys out of your pram since prior to 2011 if the scottish and english kept voting
1. SNP. Salmond went on to win a landslide in 2011 , and the snp every subsequent election , you stayed put and kept whinging.
2. If scotland went independent.
3. If England dared vote brexit.
Two of the three things happened , and you are still on political forums crying to the amusement of others who dont share you lame political views that life isnt fair and you are going to move if you dont get your way.
Talk about lack of self awareness in what you post.
You are obviously not laughing (unless you are seriously disturbed) but pretend that you are if that’s what you choose to do to help you avoid facing up to what you are. FYI - this, and its immediate predecessor which we both transferred over from, are the only 2 politics forums that I have ever been on - and I only joined the old forum 15 months or so ago, so not only are you getting torn apart by a novice here but this is another example (as if we needed it) of your embarrassingly poor powers of deduction ...and, btw, you have cracked that very same tired old Jo Swinson line umpteen times now. I have no idea why you think that her getting dumped should pain me; she got what she deserved! No DIGNITY...NO HUMILITY...NO INTEGRITY.......NO HOPER ! I will be sad to see you go. Dont let the door hit you on your way out happy.
Scotland really will miss the GDP your paper round brings to our economy.....
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