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Post by thomas on Jan 18, 2023 18:04:15 GMT
history has the answer to that question bentley. Both within these islands , and outside.
The same pattern emerges time and again , the natives revolt , until eventually they kick the westminster elite out.
At the minute though ,back on topic , we are discussing the lack of democracy in this disunited kingdom. Wiser heads in England than my dear friend vinny can see the tories are stirring up a hornets nest.
There are many scots who dont agree with the GRR bill , but there are many more who also emphatically disagree with westmisnter intefering in scottish democracy. Quite clearly ,if the de facto english parliament cannot be trusted to honour devolution agreements , then we must bring this union to its final end .
So the answer is that the indies won’t accept a vote for continuing the union with the rest of the UK. They will whine and whine until they get another go. we did accept it. It was voted on , and the result implemented in 2014.
round 2 now bentley. democracy is of course a neverendum , espcially as the uk we voted marginally to stay in doesnt exist anymore.
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Post by Bentley on Jan 18, 2023 18:07:46 GMT
So the answer is that the indies won’t accept a vote for continuing the union with the rest of the UK. They will whine and whine until they get another go. we did accept it. It was voted on , and the result implemented in 2014.
round 2 now bentley. democracy is of course a neverendum , espcially as the uk we voted marginally to stay in doesnt exist anymore.
You never accepted it . Every indie Scot on any forum I visited whined ‘ no fair’. Now the indies are finding another reason for another go and if they lose that then they will continue whining and finding another reason for another go. You know it . So I’m not taking any lessons from the usual suspects about democracy or representation .
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Post by thomas on Jan 18, 2023 18:12:02 GMT
we did accept it. It was voted on , and the result implemented in 2014.
round 2 now bentley. democracy is of course a neverendum , espcially as the uk we voted marginally to stay in doesnt exist anymore.
You never accepted it . Every indie Scot on any forum I visited whined ‘ no fair’. Now the indies are finding another reason for another go and if they lose that then they will continue whining and finding another reason for another go. You know it . So I’m not taking any lessons from the usual suspects about democracy or representation . We did accept it. What we never accepted was england telling us thats it forevermore , two totally differnt things. You never accepted our wish to stay in the eu , yet reluctantly allowed northern ireland . So reap what you sow.
As for this subject , regarding the grr bill and devolution , talking about accepting democracy , you heard english folk like vinny imply they have never accepted scottish democracy in voting for devolution , so talk is of course cheap when it comes to england disrespecting others but demanding their wishes get respected in turn.
The old do as we say empire mentality that lost your country a 62 nation worldwide empire.
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Post by Bentley on Jan 18, 2023 18:21:03 GMT
You never accepted it . Every indie Scot on any forum I visited whined ‘ no fair’. Now the indies are finding another reason for another go and if they lose that then they will continue whining and finding another reason for another go. You know it . So I’m not taking any lessons from the usual suspects about democracy or representation . We did accept it. What we never accepted was england telling us thats it forevermore , two totally differnt things. You never accepted our wish to stay in the eu , yet reluctantly allowed northern ireland . So reap what you sow.
As for this subject , regarding the grr bill and devolution , talking about accepting democracy , you heard english folk like vinny imply they have never accepted scottish democracy in voting for devolution , so talk is of course cheap when it comes to england disrespecting others but demanding their wishes get respected in turn.
The old do as we say empire mentality that lost your country a 62 nation worldwide empire.
You didn’t accept it all. There was whining from the day after the referendum result . The SNP never declared the issue solved. Had the indies won they would never accepted that Scotland should apply to rejoin the union if circumstances changed. Its outright disingenuous to claim that the indies either accepted or would accept a vote to stay in the union. Indies are not interested in democracy, they are not interested in a referendum. They are only interested in permanently leaving the union. They are a one dimensional mindset and every road leads to Scottish independence. So I repeat . I won’t take any lessons in democracy or even honesty from them.
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Post by thomas on Jan 18, 2023 18:27:17 GMT
We did accept it. What we never accepted was england telling us thats it forevermore , two totally differnt things. You never accepted our wish to stay in the eu , yet reluctantly allowed northern ireland . So reap what you sow.
As for this subject , regarding the grr bill and devolution , talking about accepting democracy , you heard english folk like vinny imply they have never accepted scottish democracy in voting for devolution , so talk is of course cheap when it comes to england disrespecting others but demanding their wishes get respected in turn.
The old do as we say empire mentality that lost your country a 62 nation worldwide empire.
You didn’t accept it all. There was whining from the day after the referendum result . I accepted it , and obviously the result was implemented. I can only explain my position to you as best i can . If you dont agree, or wish to pretend otherwise , it matters not to me.
It wasnt solved. We lost a battle , not a war.
No country that has left the union( or empire) has ever asked to come back . Why would anyone want to? Its a silly point , merely trying to throw out false arguments to justify your own nations lack of democracy.
No its disingenuous to imply one vote last forever. It doesnt. Your own country has a constitutional law that says no parliament can ever be bound by a past parliament. So why you think the 2014 results binds us for eternity is beyond me.
Perfidious albion making it up as she goes as ever....
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Post by om15 on Jan 18, 2023 18:41:18 GMT
Just to lighten the thread a little,
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Post by Bentley on Jan 18, 2023 19:07:45 GMT
You didn’t accept it all. There was whining from the day after the referendum result . I accepted it , and obviously the result was implemented. I can only explain my position to you as best i can . If you dont agree, or wish to pretend otherwise , it matters not to me.
It wasnt solved. We lost a battle , not a war.
No country that has left the union( or empire) has ever asked to come back . Why would anyone want to? Its a silly point , merely trying to throw out false arguments to justify your own nations lack of democracy.
No its disingenuous to imply one vote last forever. It doesnt. Your own country has a constitutional law that says no parliament can ever be bound by a past parliament. So why you think the 2014 results binds us for eternity is beyond me.
Perfidious albion making it up as she goes as ever....
How hypocritical to claim that England is undemocratic when admitting you would ignore a result of your own referendum. I find that the Scot indies tend to be in two groups 1 The wronged wife. “Im the one with the money but you never gave me enough housekeeping and chained me to the sink.I’m off to join a commune and by the way..when I’m gone you won’t be able to,pay the mortgage .” 2 The chameleon. ” Isn’t OUR government horrid? I’ll be glad when I can call it YOUR government. Sometimes 2 shows the face of 1.
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Post by Vinny on Jan 18, 2023 19:22:20 GMT
Thomas. Scotland is only part of the UK because Scotland in 1707 wanted to be part of a bigger country and it still does. Carry on trying to bully Scotland into leaving the UK and the SNP will get clobbered.
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Post by Ripley on Jan 18, 2023 21:20:17 GMT
What if Scotland just asserted independence? If they can't even get a referendum by asking nicely, they might as well withdraw from the treaty.
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Post by om15 on Jan 18, 2023 21:24:45 GMT
Well, point one, they were given a referendum and they voted to remain in the UK, point two, more Scots wish to remain in the UK than wish to leave. They could just leave, but they don't have the courage to do so.
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Post by Ripley on Jan 18, 2023 21:47:10 GMT
They may have voted to remain almost ten years ago in 2014, but they may no longer feel that way now. How can that be established without another referendum? If I were a gambler, I wouldn't bet on them not having the courage to assert independence. Sooner or later, they probably will.
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Post by Pacifico on Jan 18, 2023 22:18:59 GMT
What if Scotland just asserted independence? If they can't even get a referendum by asking nicely, they might as well withdraw from the treaty. LOL - I have been suggesting that for years. You dont wait to be granted independence you take it - trouble is, and the SNP know this, there is not a majority in Scotland in favour of independance.
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Post by happyjack on Jan 18, 2023 22:49:42 GMT
Don’t be fooled by the extremist attitudes and twisted arguments of the little band of Indy fanatics on here, or by the seemingly endless supply of pro-independence Scottish politicos foisted on the UK audience by the country’s broadcast media as “the voice of Scotland”, into thinking that this is remotely representative of public opinion in Scotland. The reality is very different ie. Scotland is split 50/50 on independence, and a sizeable proportion on both sides (perhaps the majority) are moderate in their views and in the strength of their commitment. Unless a real game-changer comes along then there seems little prospect of Scotland’s people, or rather the Indy-fanatic element of the YES side, asserting independence, because the rest of us wouldn’t let them. Here’s an entertaining little article that captures the mood of the sensible majority rather nicely. www.newstatesman.com/politics/scotland/2022/02/why-scottish-nationalism-is-simultaneously-safe-and-stuckWhy Scottish nationalism is simultaneously safe and stuck
Scottish independence isn’t a rousing, visionary cause but a glum complaint, too tepid to command popular sacrifice. Twenty years ago, the artist John Byrne took to the streets of Dublin, Belfast and Cork, armed with a microphone, a camera and a simple question: would you die for Ireland? In the resulting short film, Byrne – who was born into Belfast’s nationalist community – lets his subjects expand on their answer as much as they want. There are plenty of eloquent sceptics: “You die for a country that’ll do something for you,” chuckled one man; “this country doesn’t do anything for a lot of people.” “Family and friends, I would,” said another; “Ireland is too big a thing to die for.” Or there’s this: “if I feel strongly enough about something I would either die for it or go to prison for it, but I certainly wouldn’t die for a word, and Ireland is a word.” There are many others, however, who offer a proud “yes” without hesitation. In Imagined Communities (1983), Benedict Anderson writes that “dying for one’s country, which usually one does not choose, assumes a moral grandeur which dying for the Labour Party, the American Medical Association, or perhaps even Amnesty International can not rival, for these are all bodies one can join or leave at easy will.” Several of Byrne’s respondents emphasise their willingness under certain “circumstances”, like being called up by the state. But the real “moral grandeur” comes from the fact that all of those other gallant refusals would be far harder to sustain in the kind of vast, intoxicating rush to war that mobilises whole peoples into conflict. Nations memorialise not just those martyrs who went over the top in full agreement with their government, but also those who had little real choice in the matter – who did it because it’s what their friends were doing, or because resistance would have meant prison, ostracisation or worse. “Ineluctable necessity” produces “an aura of purity and disinterestedness” around the nation, writes Anderson: the banal innocence of such a sacrifice – registered in every “tomb of the unknown soldier” – is what imbues nations with the symbolic authority to mobilise for the next war. I was reminded of Byrne’s video recently by the outpouring of Western reportage from Ukrainian “frontier” zones, replete with the fatalistic musings of local civilians and soldiers. “I’ve no plans to flee,” one lawyer in Mariupol told the Financial Times as Russian troops assembled at the border; “I’d rather take up arms and fight. This is my home.” The Ukrainian government is providing combat training drills to its citizens, as Nato-aligned leaders and experts speculate about a Russian invasion leading to a prolonged insurgency. Ordinary people joining a deadly struggle is nothing new in a country that is still battling to consolidate its 2014 revolution against Viktor Yanukovych’s kleptocratic, Putin-backed regime, whose snipers, riot police and Titushky thugs murdered or disappeared hundreds of protesters in the space of a few weeks. Whether it’s Ukraine or even Ireland’s recent history, it’s important to reflect on the jarring comparison with more parochial territorial questions: would I die for Scotland? Would anyone? Broadly speaking, I have indulged in two kinds of Scottish nationalism over the years. The first was the common insistence that I was not, in fact, a nationalist, but simply wanted independence because we had to get out of a Tory-dominated UK, thus opening up a small, coincidentally Scotland-shaped avenue for improvement. But this escape raft is still inflated by a nationalist pump: it is at least parasitic upon the idea that Scotland is somehow kinder and gentler than England. If you’d asked me then if I’d die for Scotland, I would have said “no – and unlike Britain, Scotland doesn’t expect me to say yes, and that’s why we need independence”. Years of tepid SNP dominance soon spoiled my appetite for that kind of smarmy national moralism. Nevertheless, I leaned into the underlying logic. While Scotland isn’t worth dying for, nationalism can at least demand something that is, and struggle against the actual nation towards that goal – “a liberated and revolutionary nationalism, worthy of the name and the times,” as Tom Nairn put it in 1968. A similar idea crops up throughout Byrne’s interviews, as wavering martyrs suggest they might consider it for a 32-county republic. It also appears in the 1995 film Braveheart, after one grimy Scottish conscript, observing his pompous generals from the front line, yells “alright lads, I’m no dying for these bastards – let’s go home!” It takes the last-minute arrival of William Wallace – and his rhetorical blast of real, popular sovereignty – to microwave their sacrificial porridge. So, a Scottish Socialist Republic – I still think that’d be worth it. But the problem with this, I realise, is that the martyrdom is lethally front-loaded. Achieving that holy trinity would require, if not quite death, then some quite substantial sacrifices on the way there. And there is little evidence that the SNP’s vision of independence is worth making any sacrifices for whatsoever: monetary sovereignty would remain with Westminster, defence would be pooled with Nato, and the government would expend its political capital flogging our ample green resources to the highest bidder. With every corner of Scotland nailed to the St Andrew’s cross, there’d be nothing left to save. But this is not the kind of problem that can be answered by the classic radical-patriotic formula of overthrowing our own elites as well as the foreign ones. The SNP has not adopted this model because it is a neoliberal ideologue, but because it is the path of least resistance. The present limitations of Scottish politics are not, as they appeared in Ukraine, an imposition by corrupt elites on a noble people, of the kind that could enrage the nation into self-sacrificing revolt. Scotland’s flaws feel more like a sign that representative democracy is working too well, with any real territorial conflict largely subdued by the local anaesthetic of devolution. The Scottish public, which is only as oppressed and exploited as any other capitalist democracy, is all too aware that things could get worse as well as better. Nationalist strategists have long understood that Scotland’s distinctive cultures and languages are either insufficiently different or insufficiently popular to sustain a mass movement against the phantom of “Anglicisation”. Its relatively secure middle layers – an electoral deadweight, if not quite an actual majority – have little appetite for the genuine risks that would have to be taken to properly address their political grievances. This is, as I’ve said, part of the “not-a-nationalist-but” argument for independence: you don’t need to worry about Scottishness being used to justify atrocities – its appeal lies in its relative weakness. Hence Sturgeon’s reluctance to pursue anything more disruptive than a legal referendum despite implacable opposition from Westminster. The SNP’s timidity, in other words, is part of the deep structural contradiction that renders Scottish nationalism simultaneously safe and stuck; unlike Ukraine or Ireland, Scotland isn’t so much a cause as a complaint – a great dithering groan at the glum inconvenience of having thrown in our lot with a far bigger neighbour that is long past its postwar best, cursed by the prior enthusiasm that means we are now too closely entangled to extricate ourselves without making things at least temporarily worse. The result for most people seems to be that, even if they support it in principle, independence isn’t worth the sacrifice it would take to make it worth the sacrifice. Looking at the party those people continue to elect with apparent gusto, I find it harder and harder to disagree. I’m not dying for these bastards.
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Post by Ripley on Jan 19, 2023 1:31:36 GMT
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Post by happyjack on Jan 19, 2023 5:53:30 GMT
Almost certainly it is, yes - and in the case of the New Statesman piece, it clearly is.
It looks like I have already used up my monthly free article allowance from the NewStatesman, as I couldn’t open their article in full. However, he writes well and, from its teasing introduction, it looks interesting, so I will probably return to it later and see if I can get the full text.
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