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Post by happyjack on Jan 19, 2023 6:51:04 GMT
I don’t think so. Surely the important issue is the will of the UK Parliament. We asked the scottish people by referendum on that subject , and by nearly 75 % we voted for devolution. Surely the will of the scottish parliament is what is important?
only 8 % of scots wish to abolish the scottish parliament , so as ever happy you are in a tiny minority.
I am not sure that I follow your point. I think that you are saying that as 75% of us (myself included) voted for devolution, then the devolved Scottish Parliament trumps the UK Parliament on deciding the content of UK passports, at least in respect of those British citizens who reside in Scotland. If that is your argument then I am pretty sure that you are wrong on this one. As for abolishing the Scottish Parliament, where have I ever said that I am in favour of this? You seem to need me to conform to some crude caricature of a No voter that you carry about in your mind, irrespective of my actual views, in order that you can trot out your weary old corrosive attack lines and snide asides on those who are not convinced on the merits of independence. If you want to win over hearts and minds (minds more that hearts, I reckon, when it comes to the 50% of us Scots who have not succumbed to the Indy message) then your approach is seriously counterproductive. All you have to do is convince us that the Scottish people will not suffer financial hardship in the formative years of an Indy Scotland, and that we will be clearly financially advantaged thereafter. If you didn’t believe that this would be the case then, presumably, you would not want to force harm and hardship on the Scottish people by going down the Indy route, so this should be a simple task for you. If/when you do, you will not only win my vote but you will quickly see support for independence rise way beyond the point where it can be resisted or denied. |
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Post by happyjack on Jan 19, 2023 7:19:55 GMT
Westminster is overruling a democratically elected legislature afforded autonomy through the Scotland Act. This is a betrayal of the Devolution settlement. It just is. I don’t understand why this is a betrayal of the devolution settlement. Surely UK govt. is simply complying with the devolution settlement here by utilising one of its provisions and by seeking to ensure that its terms are not breached. |
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Post by happyjack on Jan 19, 2023 7:49:47 GMT
Next month, the UK government is going to roll out the Marriage and Civil Partnership Bill, which will create a legal status conflict in England and Wales for under 18's who marry in Scotland. This makes the government's main objection to Scotland's Gender Reform bill, ie that it creates a legal status conflict, look disingenuous and politically motivated. I guess that it might look disingenuous and politically motivated to those amongst us who want it to look disingenuous and politically motivated. On the other hand, it might be viewed as evidence that UK government treads very lightly when exercising its powers over the Scottish Parliament and the devolution settlement, treating both with respect and sensitivity (apart from during the thankfully short lived Truss nightmare, perhaps). And as for political motivation, don’t you think that provoking this stooshie and seeking to gain political capital from the outfall was a serious driver for SNP (and Green) ScotGov? |
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Post by thomas on Jan 19, 2023 8:32:09 GMT
I accepted it , and obviously the result was implemented. I can only explain my position to you as best i can . If you dont agree, or wish to pretend otherwise , it matters not to me.
It wasnt solved. We lost a battle , not a war.
No country that has left the union( or empire) has ever asked to come back . Why would anyone want to? Its a silly point , merely trying to throw out false arguments to justify your own nations lack of democracy.
No its disingenuous to imply one vote last forever. It doesnt. Your own country has a constitutional law that says no parliament can ever be bound by a past parliament. So why you think the 2014 results binds us for eternity is beyond me.
Perfidious albion making it up as she goes as ever....
How hypocritical to claim that England is undemocratic when admitting you would ignore a result of your own referendum. I find that the Scot indies tend to be in two groups 1 The wronged wife. “Im the one with the money but you never gave me enough housekeeping and chained me to the sink.I’m off to join a commune and by the way..when I’m gone you won’t be able to,pay the mortgage .” 2 The chameleon. ” Isn’t OUR government horrid? I’ll be glad when I can call it YOUR government. Sometimes 2 shows the face of 1. The principle of democracy that a vote thats done , can later be undone , exists in every society across the western world if not beyond. Your own westmisnter parliament enshirnes that democratic principle in many ways.
1. No current parliament can bind a future parliament , which you ignore.
2. In westmisnter law , it allows northern ireland to revisit a referendum every 7 years.
So the idea democracy applies to everyone else apart from scotland is laughable.
Everytime scotland votes for a pro independence majority of politicians , it can then re visit a democratic referendum provided the winning vote is them implemented each time as it was in 2014.
You can stamp and pout and deny that democratic fact all day long , it matters not.
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Post by thomas on Jan 19, 2023 8:36:13 GMT
We asked the scottish people by referendum on that subject , and by nearly 75 % we voted for devolution. Surely the will of the scottish parliament is what is important?
only 8 % of scots wish to abolish the scottish parliament , so as ever happy you are in a tiny minority.
I am not sure that I follow your point. I think that you are saying that as 75% of us (myself included) voted for devolution, then the devolved Scottish Parliament trumps the UK Parliament on deciding the content of UK passports, at least in respect of those British citizens who reside in Scotland. If that is your argument then I am pretty sure that you are wrong on this one. As for abolishing the Scottish Parliament, where have I ever said that I am in favour of this? You seem to need me to conform to some crude caricature of a No voter that you carry about in your mind, irrespective of my actual views, in order that you can trot out your weary old corrosive attack lines and snide asides on those who are not convinced on the merits of independence. If you want to win over hearts and minds (minds more that hearts, I reckon, when it comes to the 50% of us Scots who have not succumbed to the Indy message) then your approach is seriously counterproductive. All you have to do is convince us that the Scottish people will not suffer financial hardship in the formative years of an Indy Scotland, and that we will be clearly financially advantaged thereafter. If you didn’t believe that this would be the case then, presumably, you would not want to force harm and hardship on the Scottish people by going down the Indy route, so this should be a simple task for you. If/when you do, you will not only win my vote but you will quickly see support for independence rise way beyond the point where it can be resisted or denied. The point is very clear.
You claimed
quite clearly that is nonsense as scotland voted overwhelmingly for devolution and a scottish parliaments will being important.
Far from being as you hint the only legislature that is important , the scottish people democratically voted for three legislatures to have a say in our country.
Your westmisnter parlament has taken us out of one against the public will , is overriding another against the public will (not for the first time) and trying bit by bit to reestablish its sole authority over scotland against the public view.
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Post by thomas on Jan 19, 2023 8:42:28 GMT
What if Scotland just asserted independence? If they can't even get a referendum by asking nicely, they might as well withdraw from the treaty. fully agree ripley. Quite clearly a severe confrontation is coming unfortunately between westmisnter and holyrood .
Its now unavoidable.
Theres not a treaty in existence one of the main signatories cannot withdraw from , westmisnter knows this , as its broken most of them.
I think we are close to the tipping point now.
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Post by happyjack on Jan 19, 2023 8:50:56 GMT
Your point is clear but it is wrong, However, going over the same old ground as we, and others, have done time and time again can hopefully be for another day or another thread, at least.
Instead, can we stick with the point at hand ie. were you saying in your earlier post (as I think that you were saying) that as 75% of us (myself included) voted for devolution, then the devolved Scottish Parliament trumps the UK Parliament on deciding the content of UK passports, at least in respect of those British citizens who reside in Scotland?
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Post by happyjack on Jan 19, 2023 8:55:29 GMT
What if Scotland just asserted independence? If they can't even get a referendum by asking nicely, they might as well withdraw from the treaty.
Theres not a treaty in existence one of the main signatories cannot withdraw from I agree. However, as I have explained to you before, in the case of the Union, there is no treaty in existence for the signatories to withdraw from. Indeed, when it comes to the Treaty of Union, neither of the signatories to that long expired treaty even exist anymore. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 19, 2023 8:58:06 GMT
. Instead, can we stick with the point at hand ie. were you saying in your earlier post then the devolved Scottish Parliament trumps the UK Parliament on deciding the content of UK passports, at least in respect of those British citizens who reside in Scotland? using the quote tags quote where i said this ? If you cant , we can dismiss your claim as another happy jack porkie pie. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 19, 2023 9:01:32 GMT
Theres not a treaty in existence one of the main signatories cannot withdraw from I agree. However, as I have explained to you before, in the case of the Union, there is no treaty in existence for the signatories to withdraw from. Indeed, when it comes to the Treaty of Union, neither of the signatories to that long expired treaty even exist anymore. Nonsense. Scotland can clearly end the treaty of union. We pointed out the nonsense of being no treaty to withdraw from when i gave ireland withdrawing from the treaty of union as a clear example of the rubbish you talk.
and you accuse me of going over old ground? Legally , politically and culturally scotland and england still exist.
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Post by happyjack on Jan 19, 2023 9:17:25 GMT
There is no treaty to withdraw from and there was no treaty for Ireland to withdraw from either.
And we both go over the same old ground. Boring and futile, isn’t it?
Scotland and England obviously still exist but not in the way that you choose to believe.
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Post by happyjack on Jan 19, 2023 9:24:03 GMT
. Instead, can we stick with the point at hand ie. were you saying in your earlier post then the devolved Scottish Parliament trumps the UK Parliament on deciding the content of UK passports, at least in respect of those British citizens who reside in Scotland? using the quote tags quote where i said this ? If you cant , we can dismiss your claim as another happy jack porkie pie. So you are falling back on the same old playground style that you tend to do when you are stumped. You know exactly where these words come from but as you can’t address them in an Indy supporting way you deflect instead. Just to be clear, and despite what you might want the answer to be, our UK parliament, through its organs of government, decides what the content of UK passports should be. Recognising the reality of this situation doesn’t undermine your Indy fanatic credentials ( if that is why you resist conceding the blatantly obvious) but it would give you a bit more credibilty. |
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Post by Vinny on Jan 19, 2023 10:23:06 GMT
Politicians are elected on a whole range of issues, but the fact remains the SNP aren't even getting close to the 1.6 million votes of the losing side of the 2014 referendum, never mind the 2 million voters who speak for Scotland.
Instead of the old failed devolved bodies, here's what to do:
Give county councils across the whole UK full fiscal autonomy.
Have those devolved, with far reaching taxation and public spending powers.
Keep issues like gender equality reserved for the Commons along with defence, trade and customs, border and immigration.
Also have major law and order policy matters reserved as UK wide matters to make conviction and prosecution of criminals easier.
Oh, and replace First Past The Post with PR.
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Post by Bentley on Jan 19, 2023 10:54:41 GMT
How hypocritical to claim that England is undemocratic when admitting you would ignore a result of your own referendum. I find that the Scot indies tend to be in two groups 1 The wronged wife. “Im the one with the money but you never gave me enough housekeeping and chained me to the sink.I’m off to join a commune and by the way..when I’m gone you won’t be able to,pay the mortgage .” 2 The chameleon. ” Isn’t OUR government horrid? I’ll be glad when I can call it YOUR government. Sometimes 2 shows the face of 1. The principle of democracy that a vote thats done , can later be undone , exists in every society across the western world if not beyond. Your own westmisnter parliament enshirnes that democratic principle in many ways.
1. No current parliament can bind a future parliament , which you ignore.
2. In westmisnter law , it allows northern ireland to revisit a referendum every 7 years.
So the idea democracy applies to everyone else apart from scotland is laughable.
Everytime scotland votes for a pro independence majority of politicians , it can then re visit a democratic referendum provided the winning vote is them implemented each time as it was in 2014.
You can stamp and pout and deny that democratic fact all day long , it matters not.
The stamping and pouting is coming from you . You and your ilk are the political equivalent of screaming babies screaming until you get want you want. The difference is that you have learned and practiced the mental acrobatics to proffer your irrational claims as rational. The constant whining and demands from the Indies make the union unstable. No matter how many times they lose a vote they will demand another one . That gives the Indies a privilege that the unionists do not have and is therefore undemocratic. As I said . I have nothing to learn about honesty and/ or democracy from you lot. Imo there should be a minimum period of 25 years between Independence referendums and even then they should only be made in exceptional circumstances. That’s not because I don’t want the Scots to leave the union . It’s because it would bring stability to the union . |
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Post by research0it on Jan 19, 2023 11:00:36 GMT
Hi everyone
Is it always like this,? That no one can stick to the point?
Anyway both sides are making the same mistake. It's not a campaign for a referendum. It's for independence ( one side ) or staying in the union (the other)
Win the battle for hearts and minds and whether there's a referendum or not won't matter. Neither side remotely is winning me at the moment. Shouldn't that worry BOTH sides?
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