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Post by Pacifico on Dec 11, 2022 18:53:07 GMT
Er Parliament voted to cede sovereignty to the EU.. And what's the fundamental rule of the British Constitution, Doc? Remember the time you denied that the common law judges make the common law? If you couldn't grasp that, you don't have a chance in hell here. 18 year-old law students can grasp it with ease, but you're struggling. Think about that. What are you waffling on about now? - Common Law has nothing to do with the 1972 Act. The Act gave EU law supremacy over UK national law. All legislation enacted by the UK parliament after the Act came into force is subject to the requirements of EU law. The meant that courts were obliged to strike down any legislation which is inconsistent with EU law. Tho only way to remove the requirements of the 1972 Act was to repeal the legislation - which we did as we left the EU.
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 11, 2022 18:58:49 GMT
And what's the fundamental rule of the British Constitution, Doc? Remember the time you denied that the common law judges make the common law? If you couldn't grasp that, you don't have a chance in hell here. 18 year-old law students can grasp it with ease, but you're struggling. Think about that. What are you waffling on about now? - Common Law has nothing to do with the 1972 Act. The Act gave EU law supremacy over UK national law. All legislation enacted by the UK parliament after the Act came into force is subject to the requirements of EU law. The meant that courts were obliged to strike down any legislation which is inconsistent with EU law. Tho only way to remove the requirements of the 1972 Act was to repeal the legislation - which we did as we left the EU. Suppose that the UK Parliament legislatively handed over all power to the EU to make law on Wednesday morning. That same Parliament could repeal that legislation with new legislation on Wednesday afternoon. How is that possible? If all power to make laws was handed to the EU in the morning, then surely only the EU could pass a law repealing it. It's possible because it was constitutionally impossible for the UK Parliament to hand its law making powers over to anyone in the morning. That is the fundamental rule of the British constitution. If Parliament makes a law, a new parliament or even the same Parliament can repeal it. The UK Parliament never did or could hand sovereignty over to the EU. This is basic stuff, Doc. As I said, teenage law graduates are expected to be able to understand this. A man of your age shouldn't be struggling with it.
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Post by sandypine on Dec 11, 2022 19:01:17 GMT
Er Parliament voted to cede sovereignty to the EU.. And what's the fundamental rule of the British Constitution, Doc? Remember the time you denied that the common law judges make the common law? If you couldn't grasp that, you don't have a chance in hell here. 18 year-old law students can grasp it with ease, but you're struggling. Think about that. Depends how you define sovereignty. If it means the ability to make all your own decisions without recourse to another authority then parliamnet ceded sovereignty, if it means that the only course to stop that is to leave that authority then parliament did not cede authority. I think part of the problem is the Crown is sovereign but progresses on the advice of its government, through the Monarch and the agreement with parliament. HM the Queen ceded her sovereignty by signing the 1972 act. That act eventually made her an ordinary EU citizen.
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 11, 2022 19:05:47 GMT
And what's the fundamental rule of the British Constitution, Doc? Remember the time you denied that the common law judges make the common law? If you couldn't grasp that, you don't have a chance in hell here. 18 year-old law students can grasp it with ease, but you're struggling. Think about that. Depends how you define sovereignty. If it means the ability to make all your own decisions without recourse to another authority then parliamnet ceded sovereignty, if it means that the only course to stop that is to leave that authority then parliament did not cede authority. I think part of the problem is the Crown is sovereign but progresses on the advice of its government, through the Monarch and the agreement with parliament. HM the Queen ceded her sovereignty by signing the 1972 act. That act eventually made her an ordinary EU citizen. A sovereign is the person who has the final say. If someone has an absolute veto on whether something becomes a law, he or it has the final say and is sovereign. Parliament always had the final say on whether EU regulations applied in the UK. Even though the Parliament in 1972 passed a law which gave supremacy to EU regulations, Parliament retained the final say on whether those regulations held supremacy. EU regulations applied only with the express permission of Parliament, and if Parliament had withdrawn its permission at any time during the last 50 years, EU regulations would not have had supremacy. Parliament was in control at all times. No EU regulation was applied without its consent, nor could any EU regulation have applied without its consent, because Parliament is sovereign.
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Post by see2 on Dec 11, 2022 19:05:58 GMT
Well he did win the vote. I suspect the biggest reason for voting against joining the EEC was the arrogance of a jumped nasty deceiving leader of France, i.e. Charles de Gaulle. The reaction of many Britons being 'who the fuck does he think he is' in three times denying the UK membership, without the UK in WWII there would be no France. IIRC one of the main reason for wanting to join the EEC was that the French economy had moved ahead of the UK for the first time in 200 years. Charles de Gaulle rescued France from its post-war stagnation, that's why the French economy grew, pity we never had anyone as good Apart from de Gaulle's lack of any gratitude for the efforts of the British in helping to free France of the Nazis, after the war he had the French gold reserves returned from the safety of Canada while the British used up all of their gold reserves fighting for the freedom of Europe. De Gaulle refused to part with any of the French gold when asked for some in recompense for the British efforts in France. A nasty attitude exacerbated by his repeated "Non".
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Post by sandypine on Dec 11, 2022 19:48:36 GMT
Depends how you define sovereignty. If it means the ability to make all your own decisions without recourse to another authority then parliamnet ceded sovereignty, if it means that the only course to stop that is to leave that authority then parliament did not cede authority. I think part of the problem is the Crown is sovereign but progresses on the advice of its government, through the Monarch and the agreement with parliament. HM the Queen ceded her sovereignty by signing the 1972 act. That act eventually made her an ordinary EU citizen. A sovereign is the person who has the final say. If someone has an absolute veto on whether something becomes a law, he or it has the final say and is sovereign. Parliament always had the final say on whether EU regulations applied in the UK. Even though the Parliament in 1972 passed a law which gave supremacy to EU regulations, Parliament retained the final say on whether those regulations held supremacy. EU regulations applied only with the express permission of Parliament, and if Parliament had withdrawn its permission at any time during the last 50 years, EU regulations would not have had supremacy. Parliament was in control at all times. No EU regulation was applied without its consent, nor could any EU regulation have applied with its consent, because Parliament is sovereign.Not strictly true. Sovereignty was retained, as it could not be given away. In effect however sovereignty was given away as the only recourse to any one piece of legislation was to leave altogether. Parliament was most decidedly not in control at all times as the rules of the club meant they had to accept all legislation produced by the club. There was only one point of consent that counted and that was the 1972 act which effectively tied all future governments to EU law. One supposes that the idea was for EU law to be so embedded into any nation that leaving would be an impossible task. This is very similar to how a parasite works whereby there may be an advantage to the host body but harm also entails, sometimes there is no advantage.
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 11, 2022 20:50:39 GMT
A sovereign is the person who has the final say. If someone has an absolute veto on whether something becomes a law, he or it has the final say and is sovereign. Parliament always had the final say on whether EU regulations applied in the UK. Even though the Parliament in 1972 passed a law which gave supremacy to EU regulations, Parliament retained the final say on whether those regulations held supremacy. EU regulations applied only with the express permission of Parliament, and if Parliament had withdrawn its permission at any time during the last 50 years, EU regulations would not have had supremacy. Parliament was in control at all times. No EU regulation was applied without its consent, nor could any EU regulation have applied with its consent, because Parliament is sovereign.Not strictly true. Sovereignty was retained, as it could not be given away. In effect however sovereignty was given away as the only recourse to any one piece of legislation was to leave altogether. Parliament was most decidedly not in control at all times as the rules of the club meant they had to accept all legislation produced by the club. There was only one point of consent that counted and that was the 1972 act which effectively tied all future governments to EU law. One supposes that the idea was for EU law to be so embedded into any nation that leaving would be an impossible task. This is very similar to how a parasite works whereby there may be an advantage to the host body but harm also entails, sometimes there is no advantage. Anyone who is capable of understanding this will have done so by now, Sandy.
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Post by sandypine on Dec 11, 2022 22:19:34 GMT
Not strictly true. Sovereignty was retained, as it could not be given away. In effect however sovereignty was given away as the only recourse to any one piece of legislation was to leave altogether. Parliament was most decidedly not in control at all times as the rules of the club meant they had to accept all legislation produced by the club. There was only one point of consent that counted and that was the 1972 act which effectively tied all future governments to EU law. One supposes that the idea was for EU law to be so embedded into any nation that leaving would be an impossible task. This is very similar to how a parasite works whereby there may be an advantage to the host body but harm also entails, sometimes there is no advantage. Anyone who is capable of understanding this will have done so by now, Sandy. Why do you seem to be struggling with teh concept then.
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 11, 2022 22:21:19 GMT
Anyone who is capable of understanding this will have done so by now, Sandy. Why do you seem to be struggling with teh concept then. Law isn't for everyone, Sandy.
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 11, 2022 22:24:04 GMT
What are you waffling on about now? - Common Law has nothing to do with the 1972 Act. The Act gave EU law supremacy over UK national law. All legislation enacted by the UK parliament after the Act came into force is subject to the requirements of EU law. The meant that courts were obliged to strike down any legislation which is inconsistent with EU law. Tho only way to remove the requirements of the 1972 Act was to repeal the legislation - which we did as we left the EU. Suppose that the UK Parliament legislatively handed over all power to the EU to make law on Wednesday morning. That same Parliament could repeal that legislation with new legislation on Wednesday afternoon. How is that possible? If all power to make laws was handed to the EU in the morning, then surely only the EU could pass a law repealing it. It's possible because it was constitutionally impossible for the UK Parliament to hand its law making powers over to anyone in the morning. That is the fundamental rule of the British constitution. If Parliament makes a law, a new parliament or even the same Parliament can repeal it. The UK Parliament never did or could hand sovereignty over to the EU. This is basic stuff, Doc. As I said, teenage law graduates are expected to be able to understand this. A man of your age shouldn't be struggling with it. I really don't know why you are finding this so hard - to be a member of the EU requires that you cede sovereignty to the EU (which we did in 1972). To regain that sovereignty that was ceded means leaving the EU (which we did with the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020) FFS this isn't that hard even a foreigner like you should be able to understand it.
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 11, 2022 22:27:07 GMT
Suppose that the UK Parliament legislatively handed over all power to the EU to make law on Wednesday morning. That same Parliament could repeal that legislation with new legislation on Wednesday afternoon. How is that possible? If all power to make laws was handed to the EU in the morning, then surely only the EU could pass a law repealing it. It's possible because it was constitutionally impossible for the UK Parliament to hand its law making powers over to anyone in the morning. That is the fundamental rule of the British constitution. If Parliament makes a law, a new parliament or even the same Parliament can repeal it. The UK Parliament never did or could hand sovereignty over to the EU. This is basic stuff, Doc. As I said, teenage law graduates are expected to be able to understand this. A man of your age shouldn't be struggling with it. I really don't know why you are finding this so hard - to be a member of the EU requires that you cede sovereignty to the EU (which we did in 1972). To regain that sovereignty that was ceded means leaving the EU (which we did with the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020) FFS this isn't that hard even a foreigner like you should be able to understand it. I can't understand it for you, Doc.
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Post by sandypine on Dec 11, 2022 22:43:26 GMT
Suppose that the UK Parliament legislatively handed over all power to the EU to make law on Wednesday morning. That same Parliament could repeal that legislation with new legislation on Wednesday afternoon. How is that possible? If all power to make laws was handed to the EU in the morning, then surely only the EU could pass a law repealing it. It's possible because it was constitutionally impossible for the UK Parliament to hand its law making powers over to anyone in the morning. That is the fundamental rule of the British constitution. If Parliament makes a law, a new parliament or even the same Parliament can repeal it. The UK Parliament never did or could hand sovereignty over to the EU. This is basic stuff, Doc. As I said, teenage law graduates are expected to be able to understand this. A man of your age shouldn't be struggling with it. I really don't know why you are finding this so hard - to be a member of the EU requires that you cede sovereignty to the EU (which we did in 1972). To regain that sovereignty that was ceded means leaving the EU (which we did with the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020) FFS this isn't that hard even a foreigner like you should be able to understand it. Indeed which is why I wonder why you are struggling. Perhaps you are limiting yourself with definitions as opposed to understanding the concept. Everyone, every thing is sovereign it is others that place limits upon that sovereignty always by direct or tacit approval of the sovereign being or group.
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 11, 2022 22:50:48 GMT
I really don't know why you are finding this so hard - to be a member of the EU requires that you cede sovereignty to the EU (which we did in 1972). To regain that sovereignty that was ceded means leaving the EU (which we did with the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020) FFS this isn't that hard even a foreigner like you should be able to understand it. Indeed which is why I wonder why you are struggling. Perhaps you are limiting yourself with definitions as opposed to understanding the concept. Everyone, every thing is sovereign it is others that place limits upon that sovereignty always by direct or tacit approval of the sovereign being or group. Yep, it's those rank amateurs in the Supreme Court and I who don't get it.
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Post by sandypine on Dec 11, 2022 23:00:16 GMT
Indeed which is why I wonder why you are struggling. Perhaps you are limiting yourself with definitions as opposed to understanding the concept. Everyone, every thing is sovereign it is others that place limits upon that sovereignty always by direct or tacit approval of the sovereign being or group. Yep, it's those rank amateurs in the Supreme Court and I who don't get it. I thought there was a judgement at one time where a judge said that teh UK willingly ceded sovereignty. Anyhoo I suppose the critical question is that once you have a definition of sovereignty (which seems to be missing) then a simple question should address the problem. If any action of the EU contravened this definition in any way then the UK was not sovereign.
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 11, 2022 23:00:50 GMT
I really don't know why you are finding this so hard - to be a member of the EU requires that you cede sovereignty to the EU (which we did in 1972). To regain that sovereignty that was ceded means leaving the EU (which we did with the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020) FFS this isn't that hard even a foreigner like you should be able to understand it. Indeed which is why I wonder why you are struggling. Perhaps you are limiting yourself with definitions as opposed to understanding the concept. Everyone, every thing is sovereign it is others that place limits upon that sovereignty always by direct or tacit approval of the sovereign being or group. Well explain your concept of ceding sovereignty - is it anything like this? It should be noted that the primacy of EU law only applies where Member States have ceded sovereignty to the EU
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