|
|
Post by Einhorn on Dec 11, 2022 11:48:07 GMT
That is not true - the European Communities Act 1972 mandates that EU law is supreme in relation to all domestic laws. Precisely. Also, the Primacy of EU law was incorporated in the 2007 Lisbon Treaty, signed by all member states - on behalf of their electorates, but in most cases, not with their consent. Sigh! It's been explained to you, Red. We can't do any more. |
|
|
|
Post by Steve on Dec 11, 2022 11:48:54 GMT
But EU rules could have been overruled by the UK Parliament. EU rules were applied only on Parliament's sufferance and Parliament could have overruled any one of the EU's regulations at any time it chose. That would have breached the agreement with the EU, but Parliament was still sovereign because Parliament's laws, not the EU's, would have been applied by the British courts. The same is true of every member state. In short, EU rules apply only with the agreement of every member state, and the moment those member states disagree by parliamentary act, they stop applying. That means the parliaments are sovereign. That is not true - the European Communities Act 1972 mandates that EU law is supreme in relation to all domestic laws. Untrue ^ It was only ever in those limited areas of EEC/EU competence covered by treaties ratified by the UK and as Darling has tried to point out to you it never stopped the UK passing a law saying 'we reject items X, Y and Z of EU rules' That would have provoked an international issue but we wouldn't have been the first to do that (Germany has had all sorts of issues) and we probably would eventually have backed down but we didn't have to. Our sovereign parliament was always supreme in UK law - no matter what those fools at the Daily Ukip told you. |
|
|
|
Post by Red Rackham on Dec 11, 2022 11:52:54 GMT
My point remains unchanged: A country or state who's laws can be overruled, cannot be sovereign. Sovereignty is ceded to the body, in this case the EU, who make the law. But EU rules could have been overruled by the UK Parliament. EU rules were applied only on Parliament's sufferance and Parliament could have overruled any one of the EU's regulations at any time it chose. That would have breached the agreement with the EU, but Parliament was still sovereign because Parliament's laws, not the EU's, would have been applied by the British courts. The same is true of every member state. In short, EU rules apply only with the agreement of every member state, and the moment those member states disagree by parliamentary act, they stop applying. That means the parliaments are sovereign. I think you're confusing EU rules, and EU laws. The Primacy of EU Law as set out in the 1972 Communities act, and the 2007 Lisbon Treaty clearly states that EU law is supreme and where conflict arises national laws must be set aside. It is is perfectly clear, there is no ambiguity. |
|
|
|
Post by Red Rackham on Dec 11, 2022 11:55:32 GMT
Ahh, progress. So we agree, what you said up the page ref each EU member state being sovereign is in fact, wrong. Law isn't for everyone, Red. Indeed. EU law certainly isn't for us.  |
|
|
|
Post by Steve on Dec 11, 2022 11:55:59 GMT
And you really do not understand that nothing stopped the UK passing a law that countered such and that our courts would have to implement.
|
|
|
|
Post by Red Rackham on Dec 11, 2022 12:03:09 GMT
For anyone who may be interested, this clip from 2016 is not only interesting but is also very relevant to this discussion. At 1 hour 20 minutes it's quite long but I think you will agree (lol) the opening speaker, John Redwood, makes some very interesting reasonable and common sense points.
|
|
|
|
Post by Einhorn on Dec 11, 2022 12:04:56 GMT
Law isn't for everyone, Red. Indeed. EU law certainly isn't for us. EU law sets out to harmonise laws so as to make trade between its members easier. Its laws are primarily concerned with trade. It doesn't concern itself with family law or criminal law. EU laws may not be for you personally because you don't personally benefit from making it easier to sell British goods in the world's biggest market. |
|
|
|
Post by see2 on Dec 11, 2022 12:12:38 GMT
Precisely. Also, the Primacy of EU law was incorporated in the 2007 Lisbon Treaty, signed by all member states - on behalf of their electorates, but in most cases, not with their consent. Sigh! It's been explained to you, Red. We can't do any more. Many op-outs have been taken since 1972. |
|
|
|
Post by Einhorn on Dec 11, 2022 12:17:48 GMT
Sigh! It's been explained to you, Red. We can't do any more. Many op-outs have been taken since 1972. Red and Pacifico don't understand that the 1972 Act could have been expressly or impliedly repealed by a differently constituted Parliament at any time after 1972. Parliament always had power to repeal it. That's the most basic rule of the constitution. Because EU law only had primacy because subsequent Parliaments allowed it to have primacy, because they only had primacy as long as that was the will of Britain's parliament, Parliament was always sovereign. It doesn't take a genius to understand that. Red and Pacifico either lack the subtlety of mind to see that, or they're playing dumb. |
|
|
|
Post by Steve on Dec 11, 2022 12:22:35 GMT
Many op-outs have been taken since 1972. Red and Pacifico don't understand that the 1972 Act could have been expressly or impliedly repealed by a differently constituted Parliament at any time after 1972. Parliament always had power to repeal it. That's the most basic rule of the constitution. Because EU law only had primacy because subsequent Parliaments allowed it to have primacy, because they only had primacy as long as that was the will of Britain's parliament, Parliament was always sovereign. It doesn't take a genius to understand that. Red and Pacifico either lack the subtlety of mind to see that, or they're playing dumb. Exactly But what you forget is they are not interested in debate by truth, all they want is to get their way by any means - bit like Vote Leave really And what you're seeing is further Project 'Look What We'll Pretend We Saved You From' . They know Brexit isn't going well, they know that ~4% GDP loss compared to where we would have been is coming true, they know we are now a far less influential nation than we were so they have to try and smoke screen everyone out of realising that THEY harmed the UK |
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on Dec 11, 2022 12:34:18 GMT
That is not true - the European Communities Act 1972 mandates that EU law is supreme in relation to all domestic laws. Precisely. Also, the Primacy of EU law was incorporated in the 2007 Lisbon Treaty, signed by all member states - on behalf of their electorates, but in most cases, not with their consent. Club membership rules. Feel free to leave if you don't like them. Oh look we did, sovereignty. I mean why didn't the Eu pass a law saying we couldn't leave. What with them being dictators and all that. 😅 😂 🤣 Bloody stupid argument. Being a member of the EU meant open trade borders, that meant you had to share some rules. How sad Brexiters have become. |
|
|
|
Post by Red Rackham on Dec 11, 2022 12:41:51 GMT
Precisely. Also, the Primacy of EU law was incorporated in the 2007 Lisbon Treaty, signed by all member states - on behalf of their electorates, but in most cases, not with their consent. Club membership rules. Feel free to leave if you don't like them. Oh look we did, sovereignty. I mean why didn't the Eu pass a law saying we couldn't leave. What with them being dictators and all that. 😅 😂 🤣 Bloody stupid argument. Being a member of the EU meant open trade borders, that meant you had to share some rules. How sad Brexiters have become. Which brings us neatly back to the begining. Why did John Major refuse to allow a referendum when he handed the UK to the EU? Answers on a postcard kids. |
|
|
|
Post by dappy on Dec 11, 2022 12:50:31 GMT
Because we live in a parliamentary democracy , we were already members of the EC, we had no tradition of referendums and the policy was approved by representatives we had chosen just a few months earlier.
But then you know that….
|
|
|
|
Post by see2 on Dec 11, 2022 13:05:15 GMT
Club membership rules. Feel free to leave if you don't like them. Oh look we did, sovereignty. I mean why didn't the Eu pass a law saying we couldn't leave. What with them being dictators and all that. 😅 😂 🤣 Bloody stupid argument. Being a member of the EU meant open trade borders, that meant you had to share some rules. How sad Brexiters have become. Which brings us neatly back to the begining. Why did John Major refuse to allow a referendum when he handed the UK to the EU? Answers on a postcard kids. Did he ever offer one? What makes you think that if he had offered one that Brexit would have happened back then? There was much more opportunity to mislead the public on the likes of immigration and the plight of asylum seekers for instance in 2016. |
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on Dec 11, 2022 13:07:56 GMT
Club membership rules. Feel free to leave if you don't like them. Oh look we did, sovereignty. I mean why didn't the Eu pass a law saying we couldn't leave. What with them being dictators and all that. 😅 😂 🤣 Bloody stupid argument. Being a member of the EU meant open trade borders, that meant you had to share some rules. How sad Brexiters have become. Which brings us neatly back to the begining. Why did John Major refuse to allow a referendum when he handed the UK to the EU? Answers on a postcard kids. And why Boris Johnson refused us a referendum on re-joining. |
|
