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Post by zanygame on Dec 11, 2022 8:49:44 GMT
Do they. I bet you can't find a single remainiac claiming we should not have had a referendum on joining the EU. Not one, nada, nil, nought. ? So you're suggesting - and I can hardly believe I'm writing this - you are suggesting that, in 1992 when Major handed the UK to the EU without a referendum, remainiacs and just to be clear that's people who wanted to join the EU, also 'wanted' a referendum on joining the EU? ZG, I think you may have lost the plot there old son.  No Red. My words are very very clear. They refer to NOW. I have no idea what remainiacs would have thought at the time and nor do you as they didn't exist. They state that none OBJECTED to a referendum, not as you try to swap that any WANTED one.But if I do understand you need to find comfort by making this stuff up, because you Brexiters do want to prevent the public being allowed to change their minds and you know you are blocking the democracy you ought to represent. Difficult for you and I sympathise. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Dec 11, 2022 8:57:41 GMT
What? So you're suggesting - and I can hardly believe I'm writing this - you are suggesting that, in 1992 when Major handed the UK to the EU without a referendum, remainiacs and just to be clear that's people who wanted to join the EU, also 'wanted' a referendum on joining the EU? ZG, I think you may have lost the plot there old son. No Red. My words are very very clear. They refer to NOW. I have no idea what remainiacs would have thought at the time and nor do you as they didn't exist. They state that none OBJECTED to a referendum, not as you try to swap that any WANTED one.But if I do understand you need to find comfort by making this stuff up, because you Brexiters do want to prevent the public being allowed to change their minds and you know you are blocking the democracy you ought to represent. Difficult for you and I sympathise. Oh ffs, ZG the long overdue referendum was seven years ago, you lost. Get over it. |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 11, 2022 8:58:54 GMT
How can any state be sovereign if their laws can be overruled? Never forget Herr Juncker's famous words... There can be no democratic choice against the EU treaties. ![]() ![]() ![]() You got some balls to roll this lie out again I'll bet you have no idea when it was said or the context. Someone handed it to you. Baah baah. |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 11, 2022 8:59:59 GMT
No Red. My words are very very clear. They refer to NOW. I have no idea what remainiacs would have thought at the time and nor do you as they didn't exist. They state that none OBJECTED to a referendum, not as you try to swap that any WANTED one.But if I do understand you need to find comfort by making this stuff up, because you Brexiters do want to prevent the public being allowed to change their minds and you know you are blocking the democracy you ought to represent. Difficult for you and I sympathise. Oh ffs, ZG the long overdue referendum was seven years ago, you lost. Get over it. See what I mean. |
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Post by see2 on Dec 11, 2022 9:18:38 GMT
__"In March 1975 Margaret Thatcher also quoted Clement Attlee that referendums are "a device of dictators and demagogues" as Napoleon, Mussolini and Hitler had exploited their use in the past."__
Just saying ^^^.
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Post by Red Rackham on Dec 11, 2022 9:27:58 GMT
__"In March 1975 Margaret Thatcher also quoted Clement Attlee that referendums are "a device of dictators and demagogues" as Napoleon, Mussolini and Hitler had exploited their use in the past."__ Just saying ^^^. Christ almighty, not content with constantly moaning about the result of the 2016 referendum, remainiacs are now quoting Thatcher from 1975, and whinging about Napoleon lol. |
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Post by see2 on Dec 11, 2022 9:40:16 GMT
__"In March 1975 Margaret Thatcher also quoted Clement Attlee that referendums are "a device of dictators and demagogues" as Napoleon, Mussolini and Hitler had exploited their use in the past."__ Just saying ^^^. Christ almighty, not content with constantly moaning about the result of the 2016 referendum, remainiacs are now quoting Thatcher from 1975, and whinging about Napoleon lol. You are the one doing all the moaning. There were a number of things wrong with the 2016 referendum and posters like yourself should not be let off the hook from being constantly reminded. If Brexit continues to fail to provide positive proof that it was the best thing for the country then reminders will surely only increase. |
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 11, 2022 10:32:55 GMT
There should have been one. It's not the EU's fault there wasn't one. Each member has national sovereignty and it's for them to decide how they manage these things. The fault lies squarely with the UK's unwritten constitution, not the EU. That said, the indications are there would have been a pro-EU outcome if one had been held. I agree, on the face of it the fact that we were denied a referendum had nothing to do with the EU, but behind closed doors I suspect they were thrilled. The decision not to hold a referendum was less to do with our constitution and more to do with the fact that like Heath before him, Major was a diehard Europhile. Your claim that if Major had allowed a referendum we would have voted to join the EU anyway, is for the birds. And we've done this before havent we? You claim each member state is sovereign, you know perfectly well that is not true. The EU call it, 'the primacy of EU law'. In other words... ... Where conflict arises between EU law and the law in an EU Member State (national law), EU law will prevail.
How can any state be sovereign if their laws can be overruled? Never forget Herr Juncker's famous words... There can be no democratic choice against the EU treaties. ![]() ![]() ![]() Each member state is sovereign, Red. You correctly point out that the rules of EU membership require primacy of EU legislation. But that doesn't make the EU sovereign. EU laws can only override member state laws if the parliaments in those countries permit it. Let's say that in 2013, Parliament decided that it wanted to ignore an EU regulation and legislated in a manner that was intentionally inconsistent with that EU regulation, making it quite clear that the intention was to ignore the EU's requirements. If the EU was sovereign, an English court applying the law would have ignored the inconsistent legislation from the British Parliament and applied EU law despite it. But that is not what would have happened. The English courts would have applied the law emanating from Parliament, not from the EU. This is because Parliament is sovereign in the UK. Each member state's Parliament is sovereign. Of course, there would have been consequences for breach of EU rules, but that is not the same as the EU being sovereign in the UK. |
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Post by Fairsociety on Dec 11, 2022 10:45:57 GMT
Christ almighty, not content with constantly moaning about the result of the 2016 referendum, remainiacs are now quoting Thatcher from 1975, and whinging about Napoleon lol. You are the one doing all the moaning. There were a number of things wrong with the 2016 referendum and posters like yourself should not be let off the hook from being constantly reminded. If Brexit continues to fail to provide positive proof that it was the best thing for the country then reminders will surely only increase. There is nothing the UK people can do if the EU turn dirty guts, which they have.
If there is a obstacle they can put in our way, they'll put it there.
If the EU played ball Brexit would be a raving success, but you can't legislate against grievance, which the EU have plenty of.
If remoaners want to blame any one for Brexit not running smoothly you are directing your blame game at the wrong people, the people of the UK did not vote for the EU to extract revenge on us, remoaners are either blinkered and clearly not paying attention.
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Post by zanygame on Dec 11, 2022 10:52:54 GMT
You are the one doing all the moaning. There were a number of things wrong with the 2016 referendum and posters like yourself should not be let off the hook from being constantly reminded. If Brexit continues to fail to provide positive proof that it was the best thing for the country then reminders will surely only increase. There is nothing the UK people can do if the EU turn dirty guts, which they have.
If there is a obstacle they can put in our way, they'll put it there.
If the EU played ball Brexit would be a raving success, but you can't legislate against grievance, which the EU have plenty of.
If remoaners want to blame any one for Brexit not running smoothly you are directing your blame game at the wrong people, the people of the UK did not vote for the EU to extract revenge on us, remoaners are either blinkered and clearly not paying attention.
Why the heck should the EU bend or break their rules for the good of a nation that left and then spent its time saying they were dictators and tyrants. As for members obeying EU regulations, its no different in the United States, No state can usurp nationally agreed laws. Junkers much lied about words were to Greece in 2015 who wanted to remain in the EU while abandoning the Euro revaluing their own currency and thus writing off their debts. Money lent to them in good faith by the other EU members. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Dec 11, 2022 10:58:18 GMT
Each member state is sovereign, Red. You correctly point out that the rules of EU membership require primacy of EU legislation. But that doesn't make the EU sovereign. Let's say that in 2013, Parliament decided that it wanted to ignore an EU regulation and legislated in a manner that was intentionally inconsistent with that EU regulation, making it quite clear that the intention was to ignore the EU's requirements. If the EU was sovereign, an English court applying the law would have ignored the inconsistent legislation from the British Parliament and applied EU law despite it. But that is not what would have happened. The English courts would have applied the law emanating from Parliament, not from the EU. This is because Parliament is sovereign in the UK. Each member state's Parliament is sovereign. Of course, there would have been consequences for breach of EU rules, but that is not the same as the EU being sovereign in the UK. That is factually incorrect, and I think you know it. Quote: The principle of the primacy (also referred to as ‘precedence’ or ‘supremacy’) of European Union (EU) law is based on the idea that where a conflict arises between an aspect of EU law and an aspect of law in an EU Member State (national law), EU law will prevail. If this were not the case, Member States could simply allow their national laws to take precedence over primary or secondary EU legislation, and the pursuit of EU policies would become unworkable.More - eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/glossary/primacy-of-eu-law-precedence-supremacy.html#:~:text=The%20principle%20of%20the%20primacy,)%2C%20EU%20law%20will%20prevail. EU states are not sovereign states. They cede sovereignty to the EU. Naturally, this is something Europhiles don't like talking about. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Dec 11, 2022 11:02:56 GMT
Christ almighty, not content with constantly moaning about the result of the 2016 referendum, remainiacs are now quoting Thatcher from 1975, and whinging about Napoleon lol. You are the one doing all the moaning. There were a number of things wrong with the 2016 referendum and posters like yourself should not be let off the hook from being constantly reminded. If Brexit continues to fail to provide positive proof that it was the best thing for the country then reminders will surely only increase. You say there were things wrong with the 2016 referendum, well I suppose as far as you're concerned the result was wrong lol. However, do you think there was anything wrong with the 1992 referendum when we were handed to the EU? Oh, wait a minute... |
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Post by johnofgwent on Dec 11, 2022 11:04:44 GMT
Or only loonies have referendums when they know they will lose. The 1992 General Election made it clear that the electorate overwhelmingly supported parties committed to Maastricht. So only a loonie would have then wasted £millions on a referendum ahead of our 1993 ratification Really ? My recollection of the 1992 election as recounted to me by members of the Tory party Milton Keynes was pretty much unilaterally that spoofed by Spitting Image’s show the weekend after. A shocked Geoffrey Howe puppet walks up the corridor of number ten in which the walls are plastered with graffiti and the portraits of past prime ministers wrecked and someone in the group says ‘what the hell happenned’ and then from the back a voice ‘oh fuck we trashed the place ready for THEM and fuck me WE won and now WE are going to have to clean it up” Unless you mean Labours 1992 party were the utter opposite, EU wise, of the 1983 shower whose promise to depart the EEC was hampered by Michael Foot being the man they chose to lead them to do it, and ‘the longest suicide note in history’ as the rejected (83) manifesto. |
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Post by oracle75 on Dec 11, 2022 11:10:33 GMT
Primacy of EU laws ONLY apply to laws made by the EU.
All member states vote for those laws three times.
Some laws are obligatory.
Some to e done according to national law and some are voluntary.
Further, any member can negotiate exemptions and get out permissions.
The UK used to have the biggest number of them.
I consider it a shame that the EU regulation of clean bathing water is now not binding. And I heard some lorryloads of meat from non EU meat has been found to have maggots in them. It is all about standards. If they are allowed to slip, they will bring down standards of living because a lower cost is always attractive.
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Post by Fairsociety on Dec 11, 2022 11:11:55 GMT
There is nothing the UK people can do if the EU turn dirty guts, which they have.
If there is a obstacle they can put in our way, they'll put it there.
If the EU played ball Brexit would be a raving success, but you can't legislate against grievance, which the EU have plenty of.
If remoaners want to blame any one for Brexit not running smoothly you are directing your blame game at the wrong people, the people of the UK did not vote for the EU to extract revenge on us, remoaners are either blinkered and clearly not paying attention.
Why the heck should the EU bend or break their rules for the good of a nation that left and then spent its time saying they were dictators and tyrants. As for members obeying EU regulations, its no different in the United States, No state can usurp nationally agreed laws. Junkers much lied about words were to Greece in 2015 who wanted to remain in the EU while abandoning the Euro revaluing their own currency and thus writing off their debts. Money lent to them in good faith by the other EU members. I never said they had to bend the rules, it was clear from the get-go they were going to make Brexit as unpleasant as they could.
After all, they wouldn't want other member states getting ideas about their station, and wanting to leave.
They had to make a example of us, and they have, even at risk of destabilizing the GFA.
Not very nice people, are they?
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