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Post by sandypine on Dec 9, 2022 21:22:36 GMT
Yes but you want to only overturn the one that takes us out. All the other lies and misinformation resulted in us going in. There was no electoral law issues with the 1975 referendum so what are you on about? I was referring to the comments of the QC in the link so kindly provided by Darling when she said "The will of the people is meaningless if the people were victims of corrupt practices or lied to." These were her comments not mine so if teh people are lied to that falls under her definition of the will of the people being meaningless. Corrupt practises or lied to of course do not of necessity have to be proven in law.
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Post by Steve on Dec 9, 2022 21:27:50 GMT
No because the issue she refers to is the record breaking illegal expenditure by Leave. Neither referendum had legal constraints on lying - not that you can find any lies in the 1975 campaign. You can find lots of lies from people alleging lies in that campaign.
Note that that link precedes the 2019 General Election
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Post by sandypine on Dec 9, 2022 21:34:17 GMT
No because the issue she refers to is the record breaking illegal expenditure by Leave. Neither referendum had legal constraints on lying - not that you can find any lies in the 1975 campaign. You can find lots of lies from people alleging lies in that campaign. Note that that link precedes the 2019 General Election No she says OR lied to not AND lied to. She is referring to her common law consideration of democracy which rests as far as I understand it on moral principles.
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 9, 2022 22:32:57 GMT
'In fact, a High Court judge has since ruled that if the referendum result had been binding, thus mandating the government to take us out of the EU, then the courts would have had to set that decision aside due to the number of flaws in the process. So, while it was certainly a “choice” for the British people, it was ill-informed and far from democratic.' But the referendum was not binding - Parliament could have ignored it and the people at the subsequent 2 General Elections could have voted to have it annulled. How many votes do you need before you accept the result?
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 9, 2022 22:40:36 GMT
Yes we are - as I've said over and over. The 2019 General Election is the definitive electoral OK for us to leave. I thought more people voted for pro-EU parties in 2019. And even if they didn't, the 2016 still wasn't democratic according to the common law definition.
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 9, 2022 22:44:56 GMT
Where? Using the search function, I searched for veto and tax. Nothing came up. If these are present, you will still have to show that there was no veto in 1975 in order to demonstrate the British people were lied to. You appear to take the view that both the 1975 and 2016 referendums were undemocratic. If that is correct, perhaps you won't refer to the 2016 result as the 'will of the people' going forward. It wasn't. The High Court has ruled to that effect.
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Post by sandypine on Dec 9, 2022 22:48:41 GMT
Yes we are - as I've said over and over. The 2019 General Election is the definitive electoral OK for us to leave. I thought more people voted for pro-EU parties in 2019. And even if they didn't, the 2016 still wasn't democratic according to the common law definition. Why are you concerned with the common law definition of democracy only for 2016 when in actual fact if you apply the same measure to all the EEC/EC/EU votes and referendum since 1970 then everything flies in the face of that principle. Or are direct lies and misinformation acceptable if you are in favour of the EU. You cannot give us a link and say look how awful this is when many have been saying exactly that for 50 years and been pooh poohed in the process. Methinks there is a skewing of one's morals.
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 9, 2022 22:50:14 GMT
I thought more people voted for pro-EU parties in 2019. And even if they didn't, the 2016 still wasn't democratic according to the common law definition. Why are you concerned with the common law definition of democracy only for 2016 when in actual fact if you apply the same measure to all the EEC/EC/EU votes and referendum since 1970 then everything flies in the face of that principle. Or are direct lies and misinformation acceptable if you are in favour of the EU. You cannot give us a link and say look how awful this is when many have been saying exactly that for 50 years and been pooh poohed in the process. Methinks there is a skewing of one's morals. You said the people were lied re a veto and tax in 1975. Can you be more specific about that? As I said, my search of the document you linked using the words veto and tax produced nothing.
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Post by sandypine on Dec 9, 2022 22:56:24 GMT
Where? Using the search function, I searched for veto and tax. Nothing came up. If these are present, you will still have to show that there was no veto in 1975 in order to demonstrate the British people were lied to. You appear to take the view that both the 1975 and 2016 referendums were undemocratic. If that is correct, perhaps you won't refer to the 2016 result as the 'will of the people' going forward. It wasn't. The High Court has ruled to that effect. Page 12 second paragraph. There was always a veto and the leaflet stated categorically that there always would be. The question remains did that veto exist all the time we were members or did Qualified Majority Voting come in so that even if a Minister thought that something was not in the interest of the British people he could do nothing about it.
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Post by Red Rackham on Dec 9, 2022 22:58:10 GMT
No because the issue she refers to is the record breaking illegal expenditure by Leave. Neither referendum had legal constraints on lying - not that you can find any lies in the 1975 campaign. You can find lots of lies from people alleging lies in that campaign. Note that that link precedes the 2019 General Election In a 1971 white paper PM Edward Heath wrote “There is no question of Britain losing essential sovereignty.” This was a lie and is at odds with what Heath verifiably already knew about the EEC and its plans. He knew in advice from both senior legal and foreign office sources and indeed from his own personal meetings as Britain’s negotiator for EEC entry exactly what the consequences were. www.newsletter.co.uk/news/opinion/ted-heath-kept-eecs-federal-aims-public-1157490EDWARD HEATH had been warned about the constitutional implications of joining the European Economic Community (EEC) in a letter written by the Lord Chancellor - but he decided to keep quiet and promise the British people the country's entry would not involve any loss of essential sovereignty. www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1283232/brexit-news-eu-uk-trade-talks-edward-heath-referendum-letter-sptEVER since Britain first toyed with the idea of entering what was then called the Common Market, governments of both main parties have consistently lied about the far-reaching implications for this country's future. When the public has got wind of plots to remove large areas of our country's sovereignty, the usual tactic has been for ministers to pretend that the consequences of signing any treaty or giving more powers to Brussels is of very little import indeed. www.dailymail.co.uk/columnists/article-228953/HOW-FOR-40-YEARS-THE-BRITISH-PUBLIC-HAS-BEEN-LIED-TO--.htmlMuch, much more if required.
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 9, 2022 23:03:00 GMT
Where? Using the search function, I searched for veto and tax. Nothing came up. If these are present, you will still have to show that there was no veto in 1975 in order to demonstrate the British people were lied to. You appear to take the view that both the 1975 and 2016 referendums were undemocratic. If that is correct, perhaps you won't refer to the 2016 result as the 'will of the people' going forward. It wasn't. The High Court has ruled to that effect. Page 12 second paragraph. There was always a veto and the leaflet stated categorically that there always would be. The question remains did that veto exist all the time we were members or did Qualified Majority Voting come in so that even if a Minister thought that something was not in the interest of the British people he could do nothing about it. But if there was a veto, the only way qualified voting could have come in is if the UK voted for it. Are you saying that Heath was making a promise on behalf of future governments that they would not do that? If you are, you are demonstrating extraordinary ignorance the UK constitution.
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Post by sandypine on Dec 9, 2022 23:04:28 GMT
Why are you concerned with the common law definition of democracy only for 2016 when in actual fact if you apply the same measure to all the EEC/EC/EU votes and referendum since 1970 then everything flies in the face of that principle. Or are direct lies and misinformation acceptable if you are in favour of the EU. You cannot give us a link and say look how awful this is when many have been saying exactly that for 50 years and been pooh poohed in the process. Methinks there is a skewing of one's morals. You said the people were lied re a veto and tax in 1975. Can you be more specific about that? As I said, my search of the document you linked using the words veto and tax produced nothing. How many lies from 1970 onwards do you want. Rippon lied to parliament, Heath lied in terms of 'full hearted consent of the people and parliament', and the 70 manifesto Our sole commitment is to negotiate; no more, no less. As the negotiations proceed we will report regularly through Parliament to the country. "A Conservative Government would not be prepared to recommend to Parliament, nor would Members of Parliament approve, a settlement which was unequal or unfair. In making this judgement, Ministers and Members will listen to the views of their constituents and have in mind, as is natural and legitimate, primarily the effect of entry upon the standard of living of the individual citizens whom they represent." It is interesting the same manifesto said "We will promote the prosperity of the fishing industry, and will ensure that the home fishing industry is enabled to compete effectively in British markets without unfair competition from dumped imports."
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 9, 2022 23:11:30 GMT
You said the people were lied re a veto and tax in 1975. Can you be more specific about that? As I said, my search of the document you linked using the words veto and tax produced nothing. How many lies from 1970 onwards do you want. Rippon lied to parliament, Heath lied in terms of 'full hearted consent of the people and parliament', and the 70 manifesto Our sole commitment is to negotiate; no more, no less. As the negotiations proceed we will report regularly through Parliament to the country. "A Conservative Government would not be prepared to recommend to Parliament, nor would Members of Parliament approve, a settlement which was unequal or unfair. In making this judgement, Ministers and Members will listen to the views of their constituents and have in mind, as is natural and legitimate, primarily the effect of entry upon the standard of living of the individual citizens whom they represent." It is interesting the same manifesto said "We will promote the prosperity of the fishing industry, and will ensure that the home fishing industry is enabled to compete effectively in British markets without unfair competition from dumped imports." Sandy, could you copy and paste this to the new thread I've started about the 1975 referendum. This thread is a response to claims that 2016 was the 'will of the people'. The 2016 result was not democratic, as held by the High Court. This thread is concerned only with 2016. Do you have a defence to that claim?
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Post by sandypine on Dec 9, 2022 23:14:45 GMT
Page 12 second paragraph. There was always a veto and the leaflet stated categorically that there always would be. The question remains did that veto exist all the time we were members or did Qualified Majority Voting come in so that even if a Minister thought that something was not in the interest of the British people he could do nothing about it. But if there was a veto, the only way qualified voting could have come in is if the UK voted for it. Are you saying that Heath was making a promise on behalf of future governments that they would not do that? If you are, you are demonstrating extraordinary ignorance the UK constitution. It was Wilson that said it and it was an item of a referendum vote giving the conditions upon which acceptance of a restriction of their democratic rights would be predicated. It was not a promise of any government. No government can bind a following one, in the same way no government (if we are indeed looking at the common law definition of democracy) can remove from the electorate that for which their permission was originally sought. The 1975 referendum was a mandate from the people giving to government the right to proceed as directed. If that direction was changed in a meaningful way, and there is little doubt it was, then common law consideration of democracy should apply if we are indeed discussing the meaning of the will of the people. Are we?
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 9, 2022 23:16:38 GMT
I've transferred your comment to the thread about the 1975 referendum. The 2016 referendum was undemocratic, as the High Court has ruled. I'd like to discuss that here. If you have evidence to support the contention that the 1975 referendum was undemocratic, we can discuss that in the appropriate thread.
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