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Post by Orac on Nov 5, 2024 9:52:44 GMT
I guess what you are saying is somewhat true if you really do mean the far right - ie at the extreme end of some form of peculiar Nazism .I don't even think most Nazis feel women shouldn't be allowed to go out in public or should walk behind their men of they do. I never said that they both were exactly the same ,hence the sentence “Replace ‘ nationalism ‘with ‘ religious dogma ‘ if you do as you say and remove the religious dogma from Islam and nationalism from Nazism, there is not a lot left of either
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Post by sandypine on Nov 5, 2024 10:34:32 GMT
I guess what you are saying is somewhat true if you really do mean the far right - ie at the extreme end of some form of peculiar Nazism .I don't even think most Nazis feel women shouldn't be allowed to go out in public or should walk behind their men of they do. I never said that they both were exactly the same ,hence the sentence “Replace ‘ nationalism ‘with ‘ religious dogma ‘ and Islamists are the equivalent of far right extremists.” in my original post. Afaik not all Muslim women are not allowed to go out in public , in fact every Muslim woman that I have ever met HAS been out in public . Nationalism in a different form exists in Islam. The Ummah is a sense of brotherhood of those who believe and accept Islam, it is no different to any form of Nationalism other than any National can become a member of the Ummah by accepting Islam. Nationalism accepts that Nationals are effectively those that count whereas in Islam those of the belief are the best of people. The Ummah is probably stronger as it transcends borders and instils a sense of unity into the group and therefore more dangerous as the terrorist danger worldwide is very much tilted towards Islam as the source.
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Post by bancroft on Nov 5, 2024 10:56:10 GMT
We can never rule out Nazi or racist Brits attacking or killing someone though think this is a tiny majority compared to radical Islam yet the PTB like to play the social cohesion rule so tar both communities equally. PTB? PTB = Powers that be aka Establishment.
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Post by Bentley on Nov 5, 2024 11:41:41 GMT
I never said that they both were exactly the same ,hence the sentence “Replace ‘ nationalism ‘with ‘ religious dogma ‘ if you do as you say and remove the religious dogma from Islam and nationalism from Nazism, there is not a lot left of either I never said to remove the religious dogma from Islam and nationalism from Nazism …hence the word ‘ replace ‘. Are you reading my posts or making up your own ones ?
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Post by Bentley on Nov 5, 2024 11:44:31 GMT
I never said that they both were exactly the same ,hence the sentence “Replace ‘ nationalism ‘with ‘ religious dogma ‘ and Islamists are the equivalent of far right extremists.” in my original post. Afaik not all Muslim women are not allowed to go out in public , in fact every Muslim woman that I have ever met HAS been out in public . Nationalism in a different form exists in Islam. The Ummah is a sense of brotherhood of those who believe and accept Islam, it is no different to any form of Nationalism other than any National can become a member of the Ummah by accepting Islam. Nationalism accepts that Nationals are effectively those that count whereas in Islam those of the belief are the best of people. The Ummah is probably stronger as it transcends borders and instils a sense of unity into the group and therefore more dangerous as the terrorist danger worldwide is very much tilted towards Islam as the source. Exactly. Nationalism is an authoritarian form of elitism and so is Islam .
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Post by sandypine on Nov 5, 2024 12:08:50 GMT
Nationalism in a different form exists in Islam. The Ummah is a sense of brotherhood of those who believe and accept Islam, it is no different to any form of Nationalism other than any National can become a member of the Ummah by accepting Islam. Nationalism accepts that Nationals are effectively those that count whereas in Islam those of the belief are the best of people. The Ummah is probably stronger as it transcends borders and instils a sense of unity into the group and therefore more dangerous as the terrorist danger worldwide is very much tilted towards Islam as the source. Exactly. Nationalism is an authoritarian form of elitism and so is Islam . I disagree, Nationalism is born from family and tribe and is a way to protect ones own by joint endeavour, it is not there to exclude others it is there to ensure others do not interfere, usurp or otherwise cause damage to the system of National government. It can be generally beneficial to all it can be generally authoritarian but it does not have to be. We can see Nationalism/family/tribe at work in our society at many times most of it in some detrimental to our National and cultural heritage and beliefs. Corrupt elections in Africa or Asia bring tribes onto the streets to protest etc. Gaza dominates many of our Constituencies, many petty feuds are played out on the streets of London. There is nothing wrong with Nationalism, or even ethno-Nationalism that democracy cannot overcome to ensure it works as it is supposed for the benefit of the Nationals who live under it.
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Post by Bentley on Nov 5, 2024 12:22:21 GMT
Exactly. Nationalism is an authoritarian form of elitism and so is Islam . I disagree, Nationalism is born from family and tribe and is a way to protect ones own by joint endeavour, it is not there to exclude others it is there to ensure others do not interfere, usurp or otherwise cause damage to the system of National government. It can be generally beneficial to all it can be generally authoritarian but it does not have to be. We can see Nationalism/family/tribe at work in our society at many times most of it in some detrimental to our National and cultural heritage and beliefs. Corrupt elections in Africa or Asia bring tribes onto the streets to protest etc. Gaza dominates many of our Constituencies, many petty feuds are played out on the streets of London. There is nothing wrong with Nationalism, or even ethno-Nationalism that democracy cannot overcome to ensure it works as it is supposed for the benefit of the Nationals who live under it. Nations are no less a construct than religious groups . They both are reflections of family groups/ tribes. I don’t see nationalism being a more noble than Islam and I don’t see Nationalism as being anything other than elitism with a border.
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Post by sandypine on Nov 5, 2024 12:53:25 GMT
I disagree, Nationalism is born from family and tribe and is a way to protect ones own by joint endeavour, it is not there to exclude others it is there to ensure others do not interfere, usurp or otherwise cause damage to the system of National government. It can be generally beneficial to all it can be generally authoritarian but it does not have to be. We can see Nationalism/family/tribe at work in our society at many times most of it in some detrimental to our National and cultural heritage and beliefs. Corrupt elections in Africa or Asia bring tribes onto the streets to protest etc. Gaza dominates many of our Constituencies, many petty feuds are played out on the streets of London. There is nothing wrong with Nationalism, or even ethno-Nationalism that democracy cannot overcome to ensure it works as it is supposed for the benefit of the Nationals who live under it. Nations are no less a construct than religious groups . They both are reflections of family groups/ tribes. I don’t see nationalism being a more noble than Islam and I don’t see Nationalism as being anything other than elitism with a border. Oh there is a major difference Nationalism is joint protection of one's own and those you agree to reside with you and the Islamic Ummah is a way to protect belief. In the former people are the important aspect in the latter it is the belief that is protected by only protecting those of the belief. Do not believe for one moment that hierarchies do not exist in Islam.
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Post by Bentley on Nov 5, 2024 13:08:34 GMT
Nations are no less a construct than religious groups . They both are reflections of family groups/ tribes. I don’t see nationalism being a more noble than Islam and I don’t see Nationalism as being anything other than elitism with a border. Oh there is a major difference Nationalism is joint protection of one's own and those you agree to reside with you and the Islamic Ummah is a way to protect belief. In the former people are the important aspect in the latter it is the belief that is protected by only protecting those of the belief. Do not believe for one moment that hierarchies do not exist in Islam. Hierarchies exist in Nationalism. In Islam belief is the glue that holds the community together . In Nationalism it’s borders and ethnicity . Nationalism brooks no dissent just as Islam does. They both are essentially beliefs and both have a spectrum of intensity.
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Post by Vinny on Nov 5, 2024 18:51:27 GMT
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Post by aristaeus on Nov 7, 2024 8:22:10 GMT
Yeah, and in Northern Island unionist protestants killed innocent Catholics for no other reason than being catholic. And Catholics killed Protestants for no other reason than being Protestant. Religious extremism exists in all religions and is a minority in all religions.
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Post by sandypine on Nov 7, 2024 8:39:08 GMT
Yeah, and in Northern Island unionist protestants killed innocent Catholics for no other reason than being catholic. And Catholics killed Protestants for no other reason than being Protestant. Religious extremism exists in all religions and is a minority in all religions. Then why import these religious extremists? They did not exist in any significant numbers over 50 years ago but they do now. Why continue that process?
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Post by Vinny on Nov 7, 2024 8:48:01 GMT
Yeah, and in Northern Island unionist protestants killed innocent Catholics for no other reason than being catholic. And Catholics killed Protestants for no other reason than being Protestant. Religious extremism exists in all religions and is a minority in all religions. We live in the present, not the past, we must be vigilant about Islamism. Labour don't seem to take the threats seriously enough. People have been suicide bombed.
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