|
Post by Dan Dare on Oct 28, 2024 14:36:15 GMT
Although its recent 75th anniversary celebrations in Washington resulted in a carnival of self-congratulation - 'the most successful and longest-lived multinational alliance since the Delian League in the 5th century BC' and 'we have kept kept over one billion people safe for 75 years’ - NATO triumphalism often serves to obscure some uncomfortable facts about its origins and ongoing activities.
There is much that could be said in both respects I'd like to focus first on an aspect of NATO policy quite close to home: its function as a obstacle intended to deter Western Europeans from forming their own defence alliance, not including non-Europeans.
The London Review of Books recently published an extensive review of Grey Anderserson's Natopolitanism , a collection of essays and leaked documents revealing less celebrated aspects of Nato’s history. Anderson Anderson argues that even during the Cold War the alliance was never principally a mutual defence pact. Particularly in the early years, ‘European leaders looked to Nato as a bulwark against internal subversion as much as against the Red Army.’ Another function, as Washington saw it, was to forestall the development of an independent European military force. Charles Bohlen, US ambassador to France in the 1960s, warned the then secretary of state, Dean Rusk, that de Gaulle ‘envisaged the emergence of Europe after the war as a third power centre in the world’. Bohlen was confident that ‘it lies within the power of the US and our allies to prevent de Gaulle’s policy from coming into fruition.’ Anderson dates the emergence of modern European Atlanticism to the 1970s, when the US Information Agency, the Atlantic Council, the German Marshall Fund and the Atlantik-Brücke led a reaction against German Ostpolitik. None of this had much to do with the Cold War. In 1966 Zbigniew Brzezinski, then an adviser to Lyndon Johnson, noted that the presence of the US army in Europe would still be useful even if the Soviet threat disappeared, to help build a ‘world order on the basis of closer collaboration among the more developed nations’. In January 1992 a CIA report noted that Nato helped secure European assent on ‘economic security decisions of vital interest to Washington’.
Modern-day Atlanticists, raise your hands! Let's see who you are...
|
|
|
Post by borgr0 on Oct 28, 2024 16:05:13 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Vinny on Oct 28, 2024 16:17:03 GMT
NATO is awesome. I'm so glad we're protected by it.
|
|
|
Post by Bentley on Oct 28, 2024 17:46:37 GMT
“ Another function, as Washington saw it, was to forestall the development of an independent European military force” Indeed that was pretty obvious until a few years ago. Unless Europe can be sure of US commitment to NATO it might be time to strengthen European military capabilities significantly.
|
|
|
Post by Ripley on Oct 28, 2024 18:18:24 GMT
Europe certainly should beef up its own security if for no other reason than that if the US ends up with an isolationist president like Trump, and if he has sufficient Congressional support, he will pull America out of NATO, leaving Europe to fend for itself against Russia and its allies.
|
|
|
Post by Dan Dare on Oct 28, 2024 18:54:06 GMT
There is a case to be made that if the US and its Atlanticist satraps were to exit NATO then Europe would have far less need to fend for itself against Russia. The principal cause for conflict would have evaporated.
As John Mearsheimer noted in an article in Foreign Affairs entitled '‘Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s Fault’ - also cited in the LRB review - described "...Nato enlargement as the ‘taproot of the trouble’ and predicted that US and European policy towards Ukraine would ‘exacerbate hostilities with Russia and devastate Ukraine in the process’. Mearsheimer attracted the ire of ideology professionals on both sides of the Atlantic for scrutinising his own side’s policies without demonising Russia in the required way. But all accounts of the negotiations held in Belarus and Turkey in 2022 between the Ukrainian and Russian governments show that Ukraine’s status with regard to Nato was a major point of contention."
|
|
|
Post by bancroft on Oct 28, 2024 19:48:21 GMT
I think we will soon see a change and Russia and China to a smaller degree have taken assets on the global chessboard it is only the fear of financial melt-down and the US election that are preventing the real news from breaking.
Biden bluffed too much, no-one says publicly that Putin is a war criminal any more or that he should go to the Hague.
Russia like the Bush regime have developed mini-nukes.......
Expect a two-state solution soon in Israel/ Palestine.
|
|
|
Post by Dan Dare on Oct 28, 2024 19:50:45 GMT
If anyone is interested in reading the full Mearsheimer article, which is behind the paywall at Foreign Affairs, it is archived here.
|
|
|
Post by Red Rackham on Oct 28, 2024 23:56:25 GMT
I'm not nearly as well read as Dan, but looking back as a foot soldier so to speak, I'm slightly surprised NATO survived after the collapse of communism. Post 1989 everything on the ground changed, yes we had more wars than you could shake a stick at, but the emphasis on NATO in Europe seemed to diminish and throughout the 1990's both the UK and US military withdrew from Europe and that was as a direct result of the collapse of communism, which NATO protected us from. So what in the 21st century, is NATO for?
|
|
|
Post by Vinny on Oct 29, 2024 0:30:28 GMT
Putin has given NATO new purpose in protecting from him. Sweden and Finland certainly think so.
|
|
|
Post by bancroft on Oct 29, 2024 18:50:31 GMT
I'm not nearly as well read as Dan, but looking back as a foot soldier so to speak, I'm slightly surprised NATO survived after the collapse of communism. Post 1989 everything on the ground changed, yes we had more wars than you could shake a stick at, but the emphasis on NATO in Europe seemed to diminish and throughout the 1990's both the UK and US military withdrew from Europe and that was as a direct result of the collapse of communism, which NATO protected us from. So what in the 21st century, is NATO for? NATO was active in the Balkans in the 90s.
|
|
|
Post by Baron von Lotsov on Oct 30, 2024 0:21:10 GMT
I'm not nearly as well read as Dan, but looking back as a foot soldier so to speak, I'm slightly surprised NATO survived after the collapse of communism. Post 1989 everything on the ground changed, yes we had more wars than you could shake a stick at, but the emphasis on NATO in Europe seemed to diminish and throughout the 1990's both the UK and US military withdrew from Europe and that was as a direct result of the collapse of communism, which NATO protected us from. So what in the 21st century, is NATO for? Nato is run by the US. It's to bully all countries into submitting to the will of the US. I mean people like Saddam Hussain wanted to go independent and that was not allowed. It's part of the post war order which looks like it is falling apart now. Trump and Harris are lunatics. Both propose disastrous economic policy which will destroy their nation. Trump and his tariffs is one way, and Harris and her price controls is the other way. It's all bad news over that way. They have lost their minds.
|
|
|
Post by borgr0 on Oct 30, 2024 0:23:04 GMT
Well trade wars aren't good, but protectionism is. I think protectionism is absolutely wonderful and should be done in every country.
You are surely aware of China reorientating their economy towards internal self-sufficiency? They have had to do this, because they can't be reliant on third countries much longer. This is what the world should be aiming for - all countries - self sufficient
I want to see a strong and powerful China where self-sufficiency dominates, same in the West, same everywhere. We should all be prosperous, powerful and peaceful and that will serve the world best
|
|
|
Post by Baron von Lotsov on Oct 30, 2024 2:54:01 GMT
Well trade wars aren't good, but protectionism is. I think protectionism is absolutely wonderful and should be done in every country. You are surely aware of China reorientating their economy towards internal self-sufficiency? They have had to do this, because they can't be reliant on third countries much longer. This is what the world should be aiming for - all countries - self sufficient I want to see a strong and powerful China where self-sufficiency dominates, same in the West, same everywhere. We should all be prosperous, powerful and peaceful and that will serve the world best They can't be self sufficient. They need minerals from all over the world. The idea is to make Brics self-sufficient, and the larger it is the more it is self sufficient. This is why the US is screwed. It is boxing itself in. It's pissing all its trading partners off.
|
|
|
Post by Vinny on Oct 30, 2024 7:36:45 GMT
BRICS is a club for human rights abusing dumps.
NATO is a mutual defence organisation for democracies.
|
|