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Post by Pacifico on Nov 7, 2024 22:22:55 GMT
Gas systems need updating (they are replacing all the gas pipes in my town as we speak), gas rigs wear out, power stations wear out - there is continual investment in the infrastructure. Renewables will be exactly the same - windmills need replacing after a fairly short period of time and the costs of that need to be reflected in peoples bills. Infrastructure spending does not magically stop after it is built. That's maintenance not manufacture. Aren't you some sort of capitalist wiz? So producing gas pipes and a replacement gas power station are nothing to do with manufacturing? - are you for real?  |
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Post by zanygame on Nov 8, 2024 8:00:20 GMT
That's maintenance not manufacture. Aren't you some sort of capitalist wiz? So producing gas pipes and a replacement gas power station are nothing to do with manufacturing? - are you for real? I didn't say that. Its maintenance Maintaining things To Maintain, replace parts as they where out. Replacing only parts that have worn out. By its very description its cheaper than building from scratch. I'm sure you're not for real with this garbage argument. |
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 8, 2024 8:07:56 GMT
So producing gas pipes and a replacement gas power station are nothing to do with manufacturing? - are you for real? I didn't say that. Its maintenance Maintaining things To Maintain, replace parts as they where out. Replacing only parts that have worn out. By its very description its cheaper than building from scratch. I'm sure you're not for real with this garbage argument. What parts of a wind turbine do not wear out? - the blades do, the gearboxes do, the motors do, the tower corrodes, even the cables deteriorate. Over the lifespan there are not many parts that are never replaced or repaired - much like Triggers broom. |
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Post by zanygame on Nov 8, 2024 8:12:40 GMT
I didn't say that. Its maintenance Maintaining things To Maintain, replace parts as they where out. Replacing only parts that have worn out. By its very description its cheaper than building from scratch. I'm sure you're not for real with this garbage argument. What parts of a wind turbine do not wear out? - the blades do, the gearboxes do, the motors do, the tower corrodes, even the cables deteriorate. Over the lifespan there are not many parts that are never replaced or repaired - much like Triggers broom. Didn't say that either. As we go forward we wont need to build anymore wind turbines from scratch (the expensive bit) but we will need to maintain them (The less expensive bit) Its really worrying that you can't grasp these basic principles. |
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Post by Orac on Nov 8, 2024 8:38:22 GMT
It is an auction - the government does not set the price. The price is what the industry will deliver energy for - if you think there are companies out there that will do it cheaper then why did they not bid?. The Government auction round last year failed to find any bidders due to to the price being too low - they had to increase the price they were willing to pay to find anyone willing to deliver. This is the truth - that you continually refuse to accept it and rely on fake charts to support your faith is quaint but not related in any way to reality. Because the auction has to cover manufacturing costs as well as production at this time, but that will reduce as we go forward. Long term wind will be cheaper are production costs are less than gas. And we get the bonus of not being so reliant of foreign supply. And we clean up the planet instead of turning it into this.  Don't be silly |
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 8, 2024 12:07:54 GMT
What parts of a wind turbine do not wear out? - the blades do, the gearboxes do, the motors do, the tower corrodes, even the cables deteriorate. Over the lifespan there are not many parts that are never replaced or repaired - much like Triggers broom. Didn't say that either. As we go forward we wont need to build anymore wind turbines from scratch (the expensive bit) but we will need to maintain them (The less expensive bit) Its really worrying that you can't grasp these basic principles. And that basic principle applies equally to every other for of energy generation. This idea of yours that we need to ignore construction and maintenance costs of wind power and then 'voila!' wind power is cheaper is pure evangelism not hard headed finance. |
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Post by zanygame on Nov 8, 2024 12:17:40 GMT
Didn't say that either. As we go forward we wont need to build anymore wind turbines from scratch (the expensive bit) but we will need to maintain them (The less expensive bit) Its really worrying that you can't grasp these basic principles. And that basic principle applies equally to every other for of energy generation. This idea of yours that we need to ignore construction and maintenance costs of wind power and then 'voila!' wind power is cheaper is pure evangelism not hard headed finance. Don't talk bollox. We are talking about the difference between setting up a new business and maintaining and existing one. The difference is huge. If you don't get that you must be out of your league by a country Mike. |
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Post by Bentley on Nov 8, 2024 12:25:38 GMT
And that basic principle applies equally to every other for of energy generation. This idea of yours that we need to ignore construction and maintenance costs of wind power and then 'voila!' wind power is cheaper is pure evangelism not hard headed finance. Don't talk bollox. We are talking about the difference between setting up a new business and maintaining and existing one. The difference is huge. If you don't get that you must be out of your league by a country Mike. And that’s why the transfer to net zero should not be a headlong rush. |
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Post by zanygame on Nov 8, 2024 15:39:14 GMT
Don't talk bollox. We are talking about the difference between setting up a new business and maintaining and existing one. The difference is huge. If you don't get that you must be out of your league by a country Mike. And that’s why the transfer to net zero should not be a headlong rush. Its hardly a headlong rush, we knew about AGW 40 years ago. 30 years ago scientists were warning something needed doing urgently. Here we are in 2024 talking about maybe doing something soonish. No one counts the cost of doing nothing. Farmers unable to plant crops because of water logged soil, tidal barriers being raised for hundreds of miles, record single day rainfalls causing 100 year events every other year and that's not Bangladesh, that's the UK. Hurricanes with unheard of wind speeds and wave heights hitting areas that never had anything like it before. Hurricane Helene cost America $53Bn on its own. How much renewable electricity would that pay for. And Two weeks later hurricane Milton cost another $50Bn . We have to stop thinking climate change is in the future, its costing money now. The Fens near where I live have lost first crops 3 years running and potato yields are halved. Its here now. We don't look like Venus yet but the effects and costs are here. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Nov 8, 2024 16:06:52 GMT
Gas systems need updating (they are replacing all the gas pipes in my town as we speak), gas rigs wear out, power stations wear out - there is continual investment in the infrastructure. Renewables will be exactly the same - windmills need replacing after a fairly short period of time and the costs of that need to be reflected in peoples bills. Infrastructure spending does not magically stop after it is built. That's maintenance not manufacture. Aren't you some sort of capitalist wiz? In the future we won't need gas pipes at all and will get it all down a wire. Wires can keep on going virtually forever. That's one infrastructure network rather than two as well. If you add in the car fuel then eventually we won't need the petrol station supply infrastructure either. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Nov 8, 2024 16:10:43 GMT
I didn't say that. Its maintenance Maintaining things To Maintain, replace parts as they where out. Replacing only parts that have worn out. By its very description its cheaper than building from scratch. I'm sure you're not for real with this garbage argument. What parts of a wind turbine do not wear out? - the blades do, the gearboxes do, the motors do, the tower corrodes, even the cables deteriorate. Over the lifespan there are not many parts that are never replaced or repaired - much like Triggers broom. I watched a video on the gearbox tech of a windmill. The new idea is a large diameter annular gear, which reduces the force on the teeth and so increases the lifespan. The blades are the biggest trouble. They crack up in time and need replacement. We could probably improve on this with better materials, but not eliminate the problem. |
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Post by Bentley on Nov 8, 2024 16:28:53 GMT
And that’s why the transfer to net zero should not be a headlong rush. Its hardly a headlong rush, we knew about AGW 40 years ago. 30 years ago scientists were warning something needed doing urgently. Here we are in 2024 talking about maybe doing something soonish. No one counts the cost of doing nothing. Farmers unable to plant crops because of water logged soil, tidal barriers being raised for hundreds of miles, record single day rainfalls causing 100 year events every other year and that's not Bangladesh, that's the UK. Hurricanes with unheard of wind speeds and wave heights hitting areas that never had anything like it before. Hurricane Helene cost America $53Bn on its own. How much renewable electricity would that pay for. And Two weeks later hurricane Milton cost another $50Bn . We have to stop thinking climate change is in the future, its costing money now. The Fens near where I live have lost first crops 3 years running and potato yields are halved. Its here now. We don't look like Venus yet but the effects and costs are here. I’d have more sympathy for this if this was a world wide headlong rush( it is a head long rush) . I live in Norfolk and fortunately we have had a reasonable crop of potatoes this year . We have some flooding this year but we found that clearing ditches did more than stop using diesel. Maybe the farmers in the Fens should try it . |
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Post by zanygame on Nov 8, 2024 17:01:47 GMT
Its hardly a headlong rush, we knew about AGW 40 years ago. 30 years ago scientists were warning something needed doing urgently. Here we are in 2024 talking about maybe doing something soonish. No one counts the cost of doing nothing. Farmers unable to plant crops because of water logged soil, tidal barriers being raised for hundreds of miles, record single day rainfalls causing 100 year events every other year and that's not Bangladesh, that's the UK. Hurricanes with unheard of wind speeds and wave heights hitting areas that never had anything like it before. Hurricane Helene cost America $53Bn on its own. How much renewable electricity would that pay for. And Two weeks later hurricane Milton cost another $50Bn . We have to stop thinking climate change is in the future, its costing money now. The Fens near where I live have lost first crops 3 years running and potato yields are halved. Its here now. We don't look like Venus yet but the effects and costs are here. I’d have more sympathy for this if this was a world wide headlong rush( it is a head long rush) . I live in Norfolk and fortunately we have had a reasonable crop of potatoes this year . We have some flooding this year but we found that clearing ditches did more than stop using diesel. Maybe the farmers in the Fens should try it . The fens are below sea level so all water has to be pumped out, Traditionally the fens are used as flood plain in winter to protect the surrounding villages. Last 3 years the water has still been flooding right up to May. The pumps and sluices can't cope. Sure we could mitigate, build more reservoirs widen sluices add pumps, raise defences, but that is part of the cost of NOT tackling climate change that people wont discuss. I do agree with you on maintaining ditches and waterways, though you need to widen the rivers they flow into as we now get more flash flooding due to intense rainfall than our country is designed for. Much of our country is very old and its difficult to widen rivers or raise banks when they go through historic towns. In the end stopping AGW will IMO cost less than not stopping it, and that applies across the civilised world. |
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Post by Bentley on Nov 8, 2024 17:14:28 GMT
I’d have more sympathy for this if this was a world wide headlong rush( it is a head long rush) . I live in Norfolk and fortunately we have had a reasonable crop of potatoes this year . We have some flooding this year but we found that clearing ditches did more than stop using diesel. Maybe the farmers in the Fens should try it . The fens are below sea level so all water has to be pumped out, Traditionally the fens are used as flood plain in winter to protect the surrounding villages. Last 3 years the water has still been flooding right up to May. The pumps and sluices can't cope. Sure we could mitigate, build more reservoirs widen sluices add pumps, raise defences, but that is part of the cost of NOT tackling climate change that people wont discuss. I do agree with you on maintaining ditches and waterways, though you need to widen the rivers they flow into as we now get more flash flooding due to intense rainfall than our country is designed for. Much of our country is very old and its difficult to widen rivers or raise banks when they go through historic towns. In the end stopping AGW will IMO cost less than not stopping it, and that applies across the civilised world. “Sure we could mitigate, build more reservoirs widen sluices add pumps, raise defences, but that is part of the cost of NOT tackling climate change that people wont discuss.” I disagree . Imo this the subject that net zero zealots won’t discuss…discuss the fact that even if the UK achieves net zero we will still have to do all of that . Why? Because it will make hardly any difference. |
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 8, 2024 18:08:50 GMT
And that basic principle applies equally to every other for of energy generation. This idea of yours that we need to ignore construction and maintenance costs of wind power and then 'voila!' wind power is cheaper is pure evangelism not hard headed finance. Don't talk bollox. We are talking about the difference between setting up a new business and maintaining and existing one. The difference is huge. If you don't get that you must be out of your league by a country Mike. There is a cost to everything - and that cost is paid by the customer. What is noticeable is that the countries which have the highest levels of renewable energy in their mix also have the highest energy prices for consumers - which is perfectly understandable as someone has to pay the subsidies. |
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