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Post by jonksy on Nov 4, 2024 7:44:57 GMT
There is plenty of coal that could be mined Yo don't have to buy coal off someone else either - it's in nature. You can collect it for 'free' in the same sense. If you can't quite grock what i'm saying here I will leave it - it's not that vital to get coal and we don't have much left so we do have to buy it off someone else. Probably all been said. Renewables are better than fossils in so many ways now, cheaper, local, clean. There is plenty of coal that could be dug up from open cast mining... |
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Post by jonksy on Nov 4, 2024 7:51:54 GMT
So what are you going to use to generate electricity when the wind is not blowing?. Currently wind power is providing 5% of our energy needs - if you treble the amount of installed wind capacity then it is still only generating 15% which is what we are currently importing from the rest of Europe. Gas on the other hand is supplying 55% of our energy. Where did you get the 5% from. Last year only 27% came from fossil fuels Generation by type Fossil fuels 27.9 Renewables 38.1 Other sources 21.9 Wind power is the largest source of renewable energy in the UK, but it still accounts for less than 5% of the country's primary energy. In 2020, wind power accounted for 24% of the UK's total electricity generation. In the UK only around 55% of turbines are working at full capacity and at any goven time there are only around 70% of turbines in use as the other 30% are candidates for repairs and maintenance.. |
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 4, 2024 7:54:59 GMT
So what are you going to use to generate electricity when the wind is not blowing?. Currently wind power is providing 5% of our energy needs - if you treble the amount of installed wind capacity then it is still only generating 15% which is what we are currently importing from the rest of Europe. Gas on the other hand is supplying 55% of our energy. Where did you get the 5% from. Last year only 27% came from fossil fuels Generation by type Fossil fuels 27.9 Renewables 38.1 Other sources 21.9 I said 'currently' |
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 4, 2024 7:57:06 GMT
Thats nonsense Baron - Battery storage (like most renewable energy schemes) are simply uneconomic due to the vast cost. Well our leccy is 22p - 26p a unit. Make that an average of say 24p. Octopus are offering 12p off peak tariff, so for every unit you store you save 12p. The battery is rated at 6000 cycles @50% so one unit of battery storage will cost you 200 quid in batteries and about 200 for a charger and inverter for a 3kw supply. After 6000 cycles you chuck the batteries away, (-200 quid), but save 720. This is like putting 200 quid into an investment and ending up with 500 minus the depreciation on the other 200. The thing is if you had put that money into a savings account you would have probably ended up with about the same, maybe a little less as your savings are guaranteed.
So all in all you neither do much better or worse. The leccy is at what they would say a rational market rate. You can scale those numbers up by multiplying by the number of units you use in peak times(17-18/24 hrs), and you will save a bit on economy of scale. The 320 A batteries are more than double the value for money as the 100A ones.
I expect in the next few years the price per unit storage will fall dramatically when sodium are mass produced and perfected. It is certainly doable.
£75 Million to provide 15 seconds of power is the definition of uneconomic when periods of low wind and thick cloud cover can last a week. |
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Post by Orac on Nov 4, 2024 8:24:31 GMT
Yo don't have to buy coal off someone else either - it's in nature. You can collect it for 'free' in the same sense. If you can't quite grock what i'm saying here I will leave it - it's not that vital No you can't. You have to dig a very deep hole to get coal and we don't have much left so we do have to buy it off someone else. Probably all been said. Renewables are better than fossils in so many ways now, cheaper, local, clean. You have to do something to turn any energy in nature into useful work. It's the 'doing something or you don't get it' property that makes it not free. If you tell people wind energy is free, naive people will expect it to be arbitrarily cheap - "if you get it for free, why can't you pass it on to me for free?" |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Nov 4, 2024 8:31:49 GMT
Well our leccy is 22p - 26p a unit. Make that an average of say 24p. Octopus are offering 12p off peak tariff, so for every unit you store you save 12p. The battery is rated at 6000 cycles @50% so one unit of battery storage will cost you 200 quid in batteries and about 200 for a charger and inverter for a 3kw supply. After 6000 cycles you chuck the batteries away, (-200 quid), but save 720. This is like putting 200 quid into an investment and ending up with 500 minus the depreciation on the other 200. The thing is if you had put that money into a savings account you would have probably ended up with about the same, maybe a little less as your savings are guaranteed.
So all in all you neither do much better or worse. The leccy is at what they would say a rational market rate. You can scale those numbers up by multiplying by the number of units you use in peak times(17-18/24 hrs), and you will save a bit on economy of scale. The 320 A batteries are more than double the value for money as the 100A ones.
I expect in the next few years the price per unit storage will fall dramatically when sodium are mass produced and perfected. It is certainly doable.
£75 Million to provide 15 seconds of power is the definition of uneconomic when periods of low wind and thick cloud cover can last a week. The difference is i show my workings. |
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 4, 2024 8:41:42 GMT
£75 Million to provide 15 seconds of power is the definition of uneconomic when periods of low wind and thick cloud cover can last a week. The difference is i show my workings. How many batteries are you intending to buy to last a week? |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Nov 4, 2024 8:45:45 GMT
The difference is i show my workings. How many batteries are you intending to buy to last a week? It's only 18 hours. It depends on your electricity usage. |
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 4, 2024 8:49:18 GMT
A dunkelflaute event can last over a week..
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Post by Orac on Nov 4, 2024 8:51:43 GMT
Overcast and still
Almost the default UK weather pattern. It's so normal, the brits don't consider it to be weather
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Nov 4, 2024 9:03:34 GMT
Overcast and still Almost the default UK weather pattern. It's so normal, the brits don't consider it to be weather We have a 500 foot hill in our town. Every year there is a big party on the top of it. People come from all over the country to this party, and this year I was there with my Italian woman. At the bottom of the hill it was beautifully hot and sunny and had been all day and not a puff of wind. By the time you get to the top of the hill and the sun has gone down it is a completely different story, so someone like myself looked rather stupid at the bottom of the hill, and well over dressed. the non locals went up wearing just tee-shirts. A few hours later they looked like the stupid ones and not me. No wind at the bottom, but almost blowing a gale at the top. It catches em out every year, hehe! |
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Post by Orac on Nov 4, 2024 9:09:45 GMT
Overcast and still Almost the default UK weather pattern. It's so normal, the brits don't consider it to be weather We have a 500 foot hill in our town. Every year there is a big party on the top of it. People come from all over the country to this party, and this year I was there with my Italian woman. At the bottom of the hill it was beautifully hot and sunny and had been all day and not a puff of wind. By the time you get to the top of the hill and the sun has gone down it is a completely different story, so someone like myself looked rather stupid at the bottom of the hill, and well over dressed. the non locals went up wearing just tee-shirts. A few hours later they looked like the stupid ones and not me. No wind at the bottom, but almost blowing a gale at the top. It catches em out every year, hehe! Yes - I understand weather can vary from place to place. As pac points out, sometimes in the uk it doesn't vary very much at all - for a week. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Nov 4, 2024 9:17:32 GMT
We have a 500 foot hill in our town. Every year there is a big party on the top of it. People come from all over the country to this party, and this year I was there with my Italian woman. At the bottom of the hill it was beautifully hot and sunny and had been all day and not a puff of wind. By the time you get to the top of the hill and the sun has gone down it is a completely different story, so someone like myself looked rather stupid at the bottom of the hill, and well over dressed. the non locals went up wearing just tee-shirts. A few hours later they looked like the stupid ones and not me. No wind at the bottom, but almost blowing a gale at the top. It catches em out every year, hehe! Yes - I understand weather can vary from place to place. As pac points out, sometimes in the uk it doesn't vary very much at all - for a week. This is why the UK needs wiring up to electricity generation further afield.
This link is a link to worldwide real time weather data including temperature and wind speeds. Take a look at the situation around us, both to the north and the south. Go north from Scotland and you will often see high winds.
Looking currently it is 10 in Swansea, but about 30 near Iceland.
Sunwise, none here, but 27 in the Sahara right now.
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Post by Orac on Nov 4, 2024 10:14:24 GMT
Yes - I understand weather can vary from place to place. As pac points out, sometimes in the uk it doesn't vary very much at all - for a week. This is why the UK needs wiring up to electricity generation further afield. Perhaps China? Wasn't your preferred first solution to buy batteries? |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Nov 4, 2024 10:36:23 GMT
This is why the UK needs wiring up to electricity generation further afield. Perhaps China? Wasn't your preferred first solution to buy batteries? It's not a joke though. I was listening to China TV a while back and there is some plan to create a worldwide grid. It's not as stupid as it sounds if you remember the three letters BRI.
The BRI is a stroke of President Xi's genius. You see the BRI is basically strips of land where trains run and sea routes as well. concentrating on the land routes though, you can send far more than trains down a strip of land. Currently they are sending fibre optics down these strips as well with Huawei involvement. Next it could be fat ultra high voltage power lines. See how you do it in economics: one strip of land, many many uses.
By the way, localised battery storage is technically superior regarding a stable grid. You should be able to sell spare capacity back to the grid as well for a profit.
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No you can't. You have to dig a very deep hole to get coal and we don't have much left so we do have to buy it off someone else. 
