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Post by sandypine on Nov 16, 2024 15:31:24 GMT
Well you excuse the mining of slave labour used to mine litheum and the damege it does to the enviroment. Baron is talking shite as per as oil wells are capped when they run dry and are no threat... I never excuse it. I am one of those virtue signallers who cared about wage slavery in Africa before it became a convenient way to slag off EV's That's why I asked you if you cared about copper mine slavery as well as lithium mine slavery. Or the pollution in Nigeria’s Ogoniland? Bet you hated buying Diesel. www.aljazeera.com/features/2022/12/21/timeline-oil-spills-in-nigerias-ogonilandAre we dealing with slavery or wage slavery which to my mind are different entities. Slavery is the ownership of human beings and forcing them to do teh work you wish them to undertake and having the power of life and death over them. Wage slavery is taking advantage of a situation whereby employees are free to leave jobs of low wages but have little choice as an income of any sort is needed. Both are by no means pleasant but are indeed different. As regards environmental pollution the supply and demand result in governments accepting specific conditions that are impossible for Western countries to control as oil spills and environmental concerns are the responsibility of sovereign nations.The EV demand is artificially created by Western Governments and therefore whatever transpires from that they bear responsibility for. There is no demand for EVs from the consumer except through conditions artificially created by government.
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 16, 2024 18:05:01 GMT
Well a lot of words, but no actual answers to the practical problems. The fact is that in some areas there are long lines of queues at petrol stations - if you are going to replace ICE cars with EV's that you intend to recharge in 5 minutes then there are severe infrastructure issues that need to be overcome. Simply saying it will all be fine on the day is not a very sensible response to a serious issue. I haven't just said it will be fine on the day. I have written reams on how many factors in refuelling will all change. From your responses you are unable to understand them. So I have given up. Its quite tiring to keep explaining the same thing to a person who doesn't want to understand. I have tried almost every description and analogy, but you just keep comparing it to petrol stations. And between every post I have to run the gauntlet of stupid insults as well (great modding BTW) The claim is that 5 minute recharges are practical - but I have yet to hear a sensible solution for where all the power is going to come from to achieve this. If I am driving down the M4 and need fuel/energy then the only practical place to get it is at a service area - and then we are back to needing 10MW supplies. With regards to moderation I see you have moderated the other place into the ground - so forgive me if I don't try and replicate your performance.
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Post by zanygame on Nov 16, 2024 18:11:03 GMT
That's oil spills FFS and has sod all todo with capped oilwells. How many oli spills have we had caused by tankers? Not as many as ev's deciding to blowup and burn.. Its thousands of oil spills over decades, that has destroyed huge areas of the Niger Delta. You said you were concerned about pollution, all that crap about turbine blades and pollution from mining Lithium and you aren't even aware of something this big. You're a fake, a fraud.
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Post by zanygame on Nov 16, 2024 18:15:59 GMT
Are we dealing with slavery or wage slavery which to my mind are different entities. Slavery is the ownership of human beings and forcing them to do teh work you wish them to undertake and having the power of life and death over them. Wage slavery is taking advantage of a situation whereby employees are free to leave jobs of low wages but have little choice as an income of any sort is needed. Both are by no means pleasant but are indeed different. Most slavery in Africa is wage or debt slavery. Wage slavery involves pay advances made to poor families and then the interest is never caught up. Debt slavery is similar. Often wage slavery starts with a decent job with good working conditions, but as soon as the debt is built the job changes. So Western demand for oil bears no responsibility for oil pollution, but Western demand for Lithium has. Yeah sure. And if the EU stopped buying Lithium you think demand would die? I think China would buy all they could produce.
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Post by jonksy on Nov 16, 2024 19:28:22 GMT
That's oil spills FFS and has sod all todo with capped oilwells. How many oli spills have we had caused by tankers? Not as many as ev's deciding to blowup and burn.. Its thousands of oil spills over decades, that has destroyed huge areas of the Niger Delta. You said you were concerned about pollution, all that crap about turbine blades and pollution from mining Lithium and you aren't even aware of something this big. You're a fake, a fraud. The niger delta has been uninhabited for years it was just an ecological shit hole long before oil was found.. And the only fraud here is you. Like I say any price is worth paying for your electric dream as long as you are not the one picking up the tab..
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Post by zanygame on Nov 16, 2024 20:26:25 GMT
Its thousands of oil spills over decades, that has destroyed huge areas of the Niger Delta. You said you were concerned about pollution, all that crap about turbine blades and pollution from mining Lithium and you aren't even aware of something this big. You're a fake, a fraud. The niger delta has been uninhabited for years it was just an ecological shit hole long before oil was found.. And the only fraud here is you. Like I say any price is worth paying for your electric dream as long as you are not the one picking up the tab..
The Niger delta is a swamp of course no one lives there. But wildlife did once. You're a fake, pretending to care about pollution to score cheap points against EV's. A total fraud.
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Post by jonksy on Nov 16, 2024 21:08:55 GMT
The niger delta has been uninhabited for years it was just an ecological shit hole long before oil was found.. And the only fraud here is you. Like I say any price is worth paying for your electric dream as long as you are not the one picking up the tab..
The Niger delta is a swamp of course no one lives there. But wildlife did once. You're a fake, pretending to care about pollution to score cheap points against EV's. A total fraud. Oil bubbles out of the ground there it has fuck all to with human intervention. FFS do you think you are the only one who cares about wirldlife? Where were you when we joined the EUSSR and cut all our hedgerows down in the UK? I don't see you bitching about Elephants being shot in Africa or India because some pervert thinks it big to shoot them and think these trophys look good hung on the wall. You know jack about what I care about or try and protect. If you were so concerned about nature you wouldn't push the EV BS..
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Post by zanygame on Nov 16, 2024 21:26:56 GMT
The Niger delta is a swamp of course no one lives there. But wildlife did once. You're a fake, pretending to care about pollution to score cheap points against EV's. A total fraud. Oil bubbles out of the ground there it has fuck all to with human intervention. FFS do you think you are the only one who cares about wirldlife? Where were you when we joined the EUSSR and cut all our hedgerows down in the UK? I don't see you bitching about Elephants being shot in Africa or India because some pervert thinks it big to shoot them and think these trophys look good hung on the wall. You know jack about what I care about or try and protect. If you were so concerned about nature you wouldn't push the EV BS.. I wasn't anywhere when the EUSSR cut down our hedge rows because they never have. France, Belguim, Germany, have maintained all their hedges and woods England destroyed its hedges and lost much of its top soil as a result. When have we discussed elephants being shot and poaching for Ivory. You have no idea of my efforts in that area. What we do know is you have falsely used pollution to try and damage EV's while being totally unmoved by the huge pollution caused by oil extraction. A fraud and a hypocrite.
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Post by sandypine on Nov 16, 2024 21:43:57 GMT
Are we dealing with slavery or wage slavery which to my mind are different entities. Slavery is the ownership of human beings and forcing them to do teh work you wish them to undertake and having the power of life and death over them. Wage slavery is taking advantage of a situation whereby employees are free to leave jobs of low wages but have little choice as an income of any sort is needed. Both are by no means pleasant but are indeed different. Most slavery in Africa is wage or debt slavery. Wage slavery involves pay advances made to poor families and then the interest is never caught up. Debt slavery is similar. Often wage slavery starts with a decent job with good working conditions, but as soon as the debt is built the job changes. So Western demand for oil bears no responsibility for oil pollution, but Western demand for Lithium has. Yeah sure. And if the EU stopped buying Lithium you think demand would die? I think China would buy all they could produce. You are not following, I will try an analogy. We accept several thousand deaths every year as part and parcel of our having freedom to drive. If government decides that due to brake pad wear pollution we can only use brakes to a limited extent to cut down wear during each braking event, this however is slightly less efficient braking and may lead to an increase in deaths. That is an artificial imposition beyond supply and demand and the government is responsible for any increase in deaths.
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Nov 16, 2024 21:52:19 GMT
Ah yes of course. Oil pollution can be justified because of other possible pollution. Well you excuse the mining of slave labour used to mine litheum and the damege it does to the enviroment. Baron is talking shite as per as oil wells are capped when they run dry and are no threat... I don't think there is any slave labour. I thought a lot of the lithium comes from the Aussies. They are not known to work particularly hard as you might know. The child labour is DR Congo. It's for cobalt, which can be picked up off the ground, much like you may have collected acorns or conkers as a child. You see over there it is a very poor and primitive country. The Chinese just set up these trading posts where you can weight it in and get the market price. They do the locals a favour as it is good money. One wonders what the kids are supposed to do in that country. They have always helped the adults. Kids learn by doing in these places. There was no such thing as a school before our lot turned up. Anyhow the batteries with cobalt in them turned out to be a fire hazard as well so they are using different formulations now. The chemistry of batteries keeps changing as better techniques are invented. It's a mega research industry because it is big money.
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Post by jonksy on Nov 16, 2024 22:27:07 GMT
Oil bubbles out of the ground there it has fuck all to with human intervention. FFS do you think you are the only one who cares about wirldlife? Where were you when we joined the EUSSR and cut all our hedgerows down in the UK? I don't see you bitching about Elephants being shot in Africa or India because some pervert thinks it big to shoot them and think these trophys look good hung on the wall. You know jack about what I care about or try and protect. If you were so concerned about nature you wouldn't push the EV BS.. I wasn't anywhere when the EUSSR cut down our hedge rows because they never have. France, Belguim, Germany, have maintained all their hedges and woods England destroyed its hedges and lost much of its top soil as a result. When have we discussed elephants being shot and poaching for Ivory. You have no idea of my efforts in that area. What we do know is you have falsely used pollution to try and damage EV's while being totally unmoved by the huge pollution caused by oil extraction. A fraud and a hypocrite. When we joined the EUSSR they wanted us ti extend our fields by cutting down the hedgerows......You support all the net zero rubbish, Maybe you should look at the damage done to wild birds and bats by wind turbines...
Some bird and bat species have direct or soaring flight, which makes them vulnerable to collision with turbines. Indirect positive impacts for ground-nesting birds may be seen where there is increased investment in predator and disease control aided by improved road access.
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Post by jonksy on Nov 16, 2024 22:33:10 GMT
Well you excuse the mining of slave labour used to mine litheum and the damege it does to the enviroment. Baron is talking shite as per as oil wells are capped when they run dry and are no threat... I don't think there is any slave labour. I thought a lot of the lithium comes from the Aussies. They are not known to work particularly hard as you might know. The child labour is DR Congo. It's for cobalt, which can be picked up off the ground, much like you may have collected acorns or conkers as a child. You see over there it is a very poor and primitive country. The Chinese just set up these trading posts where you can weight it in and get the market price. They do the locals a favour as it is good money. One wonders what the kids are supposed to do in that country. They have always helped the adults. Kids learn by doing in these places. There was no such thing as a school before our lot turned up. Anyhow the batteries with cobalt in them turned out to be a fire hazard as well so they are using different formulations now. The chemistry of batteries keeps changing as better techniques are invented. It's a mega research industry because it is big money. Cobalt is mined using child slave labour Baron...
Exposed: Child labour behind smart phone and electric car batteries....
Major electronics brands, including Apple, Samsung and Sony, are failing to do basic checks to ensure that cobalt mined by child labourers has not been used in their products, said Amnesty International and Afrewatch in a report published today.
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Post by zanygame on Nov 17, 2024 7:28:12 GMT
Most slavery in Africa is wage or debt slavery. Wage slavery involves pay advances made to poor families and then the interest is never caught up. Debt slavery is similar. Often wage slavery starts with a decent job with good working conditions, but as soon as the debt is built the job changes. So Western demand for oil bears no responsibility for oil pollution, but Western demand for Lithium has. Yeah sure. And if the EU stopped buying Lithium you think demand would die? I think China would buy all they could produce. You are not following, I will try an analogy. We accept several thousand deaths every year as part and parcel of our having freedom to drive. If government decides that due to brake pad wear pollution we can only use brakes to a limited extent to cut down wear during each braking event, this however is slightly less efficient braking and may lead to an increase in deaths. That is an artificial imposition beyond supply and demand and the government is responsible for any increase in deaths. Definitely not getting you Sandy. I thought my reply that the demand for Lithium is now global and therefore any conditions the EU could apply or any reduction in the EU's demand would have little effect. How do you think they can effect conditions in these mines, and more importantly from the point of view of this conversation why do you think your concerns should only apply to Lithium and not Copper, Gold, Chromium, Platinum, Cobalt, Etc.
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Post by jonksy on Nov 17, 2024 7:52:21 GMT
You are not following, I will try an analogy. We accept several thousand deaths every year as part and parcel of our having freedom to drive. If government decides that due to brake pad wear pollution we can only use brakes to a limited extent to cut down wear during each braking event, this however is slightly less efficient braking and may lead to an increase in deaths. That is an artificial imposition beyond supply and demand and the government is responsible for any increase in deaths. Definitely not getting you Sandy. I thought my reply that the demand for Lithium is now global and therefore any conditions the EU could apply or any reduction in the EU's demand would have little effect. How do you think they can effect conditions in these mines, and more importantly from the point of view of this conversation why do you think your concerns should only apply to Lithium and not Copper, Gold, Chromium, Platinum, Cobalt, Etc. Cobalt is used for litheum. Yet again you show your ignorance....
Litheum Mining.
“We've just seen an explosion of proposed projects in the planning, piloting, demonstration stage across a much wider array of countries,” says Caroline White-Nockleby, a PhD candidate who studies renewable energy transitions in MIT’s doctoral program in History; Anthropology; and Science, Technology, and Society.
Both brine and hard rock mining come with environmental and social costs. Sixty percent of the world’s lithium stores are located in brine deposits in South America’s “lithium triangle,” sometimes in ecologically sensitive areas.4 Mining of all kinds can disturb landscapes. And though hard rock mining uses more freshwater, both types of mining require significant water use, a resource that may be scarce in certain mining regions.5 In areas of lithium extraction from brine, brine loss is also significant, says White-Nockleby. Because brine is often not considered freshwater suitable for human use, it may have fewer regulatory protections, though mining from it can still impact ecosystems and communities.6
When it comes to energy use, brine mining, which largely uses energy from the sun, is much less intensive than hard rock mining, which requires heavy machinery to dig up and crush rock. The energy used by mining machinery creates climate pollution like carbon dioxide, which warms the planet. A 2021 study found that lithium concentration and production from brine can create about 11 tons of carbon dioxide per ton of lithium, while mining lithium from spodumene ore releases about 37 tons of CO2 per ton of lithium produced.5
The social impacts of lithium mining depend on how mining companies behave and how governments regulate them. Ideally, communities that host lithium mining would share in the economic benefits, and not be left on their own to deal with cleanup and the loss of local resources—though this is far from always the case. Last year, California, where companies are planning to extract lithium from brine, created a law to try to redirect some future mining profits towards local communities. The government will tax lithium extraction at $400 to $800 per ton, which will go to environmental restoration and community benefit projects, as well as directly to counties impacted by extraction.7
The impacts of this policy are yet to be seen, and White-Nockleby urges caution as companies propose more extraction projects across the globe. "Historically and today, lithium mining has disproportionately affected low-income and marginalized communities, and has also often impacted lands with cultural importance to Indigenous communities," she says. “It's important that communities be a part of any lithium mining planning process from the very beginning. People always have the right to reject an extraction project.”
New methods of lithium extraction, which may use less energy and resources, are also being pioneered. In “direct lithium extraction,” specialized filters are used to separate lithium from brine. The process can have a smaller footprint than traditional brine operations, and water can be recycled in the process. White-Nockleby says some companies are also investigating how to pull lithium from old mine waste.
Miners haul sacks of cobalt ore at the Shabara mine near Kolwezi in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. JUNIOR KANNAH / AFP via Getty Images
Cobalt Mining
Democratic Republic of the Congo: Industrial mining of cobalt and copper for rechargeable batteries is leading to grievous human rights abuses..
Growing demand for so-called clean energy technologies has created a corresponding demand for certain metals, including copper, and cobalt, which is essential for making most lithium-ion batteries. These are used to power a wide range of devices including electric cars and mobile phones. The DRC has the world’s largest reserves of cobalt, and the seventh largest reserves of copper.
The average electric vehicle battery requires more than 13kg of cobalt, and a mobile phone battery about 7g. Demand for cobalt is expected to reach 222,000 tonnes by 2025, having tripled since 2010.
Donat Kambola, president of IBGDH, said: “People are being forcibly evicted, or threatened or intimidated into leaving their homes, or misled into consenting to derisory settlements. Often there was no grievance mechanism, accountability, or access to justice.”
Candy Ofime and Jean-Mobert Senga, Amnesty International researchers and co-authors of the report, said: “We found repeated breaches of legal safeguards prescribed in international human rights law and standards, and national legislation, as well as blatant disregard for the UN Guiding Principles on Business and Human Rights.”
To produce Powering Change or Business as Usual? Amnesty International and IBGDH interviewed more than 130 people at six different mining projects in and around the city of Kolwezi, in the southern province of Lualaba, during two separate visits in 2022.
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Post by zanygame on Nov 17, 2024 7:58:54 GMT
Definitely not getting you Sandy. I thought my reply that the demand for Lithium is now global and therefore any conditions the EU could apply or any reduction in the EU's demand would have little effect. How do you think they can effect conditions in these mines, and more importantly from the point of view of this conversation why do you think your concerns should only apply to Lithium and not Copper, Gold, Chromium, Platinum, Cobalt, Etc. Cobalt is used for litheum. Yet again you show your ignorance....
Litheum Mining.
“We've just seen an explosion of proposed projects in the planning, piloting, demonstration stage across a much wider array of countries,” says Caroline White-Nockleby, a PhD candidate who studies renewable energy transitions in MIT’s doctoral program in History; Anthropology; and Science, Technology, and Society.
Both brine and hard rock mining come with environmental and social costs. Sixty percent of the world’s lithium stores are located in brine deposits in South America’s “lithium triangle,” sometimes in ecologically sensitive areas.4 Mining of all kinds can disturb landscapes. And though hard rock mining uses more freshwater, both types of mining require significant water use, a resource that may be scarce in certain mining regions.5 In areas of lithium extraction from brine, brine loss is also significant, says White-Nockleby. Because brine is often not considered freshwater suitable for human use, it may have fewer regulatory protections, though mining from it can still impact ecosystems and communities.6
When it comes to energy use, brine mining, which largely uses energy from the sun, is much less intensive than hard rock mining, which requires heavy machinery to dig up and crush rock. The energy used by mining machinery creates climate pollution like carbon dioxide, which warms the planet. A 2021 study found that lithium concentration and production from brine can create about 11 tons of carbon dioxide per ton of lithium, while mining lithium from spodumene ore releases about 37 tons of CO2 per ton of lithium produced.5
The social impacts of lithium mining depend on how mining companies behave and how governments regulate them. Ideally, communities that host lithium mining would share in the economic benefits, and not be left on their own to deal with cleanup and the loss of local resources—though this is far from always the case. Last year, California, where companies are planning to extract lithium from brine, created a law to try to redirect some future mining profits towards local communities. The government will tax lithium extraction at $400 to $800 per ton, which will go to environmental restoration and community benefit projects, as well as directly to counties impacted by extraction.7
The impacts of this policy are yet to be seen, and White-Nockleby urges caution as companies propose more extraction projects across the globe. "Historically and today, lithium mining has disproportionately affected low-income and marginalized communities, and has also often impacted lands with cultural importance to Indigenous communities," she says. “It's important that communities be a part of any lithium mining planning process from the very beginning. People always have the right to reject an extraction project.”
New methods of lithium extraction, which may use less energy and resources, are also being pioneered. In “direct lithium extraction,” specialized filters are used to separate lithium from brine. The process can have a smaller footprint than traditional brine operations, and water can be recycled in the process. White-Nockleby says some companies are also investigating how to pull lithium from old mine waste.
Miners haul sacks of cobalt ore at the Shabara mine near Kolwezi in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. JUNIOR KANNAH / AFP via Getty Images
Cobalt Mining
Democratic Republic of the Congo: Industrial mining of cobalt and copper for rechargeable batteries is leading to grievous human rights abuses..
Growing demand for so-called clean energy technologies has created a corresponding demand for certain metals, including copper, and cobalt, which is essential for making most lithium-ion batteries. These are used to power a wide range of devices including electric cars and mobile phones. The DRC has the world’s largest reserves of cobalt, and the seventh largest reserves of copper.
The average electric vehicle battery requires more than 13kg of cobalt, and a mobile phone battery about 7g. Demand for cobalt is expected to reach 222,000 tonnes by 2025, having tripled since 2010.
Donat Kambola, president of IBGDH, said: “People are being forcibly evicted, or threatened or intimidated into leaving their homes, or misled into consenting to derisory settlements. Often there was no grievance mechanism, accountability, or access to justice.”
Candy Ofime and Jean-Mobert Senga, Amnesty International researchers and co-authors of the report, said: “We found repeated breaches of legal safeguards prescribed in international human rights law and standards, and national legislation, as well as blatant disregard for the UN Guiding Principles on Business and Human Rights.”
To produce Powering Change or Business as Usual? Amnesty International and IBGDH interviewed more than 130 people at six different mining projects in and around the city of Kolwezi, in the southern province of Lualaba, during two separate visits in 2022.
You can only see the point if you take your head out your arse. All these things were mined using slavery and terrible working conditions long before EV's were even thought of. So what has changed to make you so wish to raise this issue now? Nothing has, you just saw another chance to say something bad about EV's You care not a jot, you are a fake.
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