|
|
Post by thomas on Nov 14, 2024 9:19:14 GMT
I see the media are calling it flop 29. Argentinians withdraw negotiators , many major countries havent sent representatives and even France has boycotted it....   |
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Nov 14, 2024 9:20:41 GMT
Net zero Austria following germany and the uk to green suicide...  |
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Nov 14, 2024 9:21:14 GMT
meanwhile.....   |
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on Nov 14, 2024 19:48:18 GMT
The weirdest assumption you are making is that it can't be done while looking at pictures of it being done. You have addressed none of the things I have informed you of. And your argument back is that it causes problems further up the chain, whatever vagary that refers to. Fuck knows where you got 10 megawatts from. that's about 200 to 400 cars per giant battery without them charging up between each one. God know how busy this station is going to be. A petrol station costs a huge amount of money as does delivering petrol to it and delivering it safely to the car. As for scale the largest battery in the world currently supplies 250,000 homes. A 1,000 kwh battery which would charge 25 to 50 cars a go costs about a 100k. How much do you think a petrol pump costs? Do such batteries exist. Yes. Maybe you can be a little less vague in your put downs. The ~ 10 megawatt figure came from a 75kwh battery being charged in 5 minutes (~ 1 megawatt). I simply multiplied this number by 10 to come up for the power demand of 10 cars being charged at once (10 megawatts). That's a significant load. The battery solution would need to be able to supply this happily and regularly and have far more capacity than merely 10 cars. If it helps, i agree that the largest battery in the world would be able to manage this. Then you read my post and accept my explanation? |
|
|
|
Post by Pacifico on Nov 14, 2024 22:28:22 GMT
The ~ 10 megawatt figure came from a 75kwh battery being charged in 5 minutes (~ 1 megawatt). I simply multiplied this number by 10 to come up for the power demand of 10 cars being charged at once (10 megawatts). That's a significant load. The battery solution would need to be able to supply this happily and regularly and have far more capacity than merely 10 cars. If it helps, i agree that the largest battery in the world would be able to manage this. Then you read my post and accept my explanation? Sorry - I dont understand this. So you put a 1,000 kwh battery at every service station on a motorway - when does it get recharged?. At peak times you will have all chargers in use. To be able to feed these chargers you need 10MW. If you replace this with a smaller supply then the time available to recharge the battery reduces. The only way I can see your system working is if you abandon 5 minute recharging. |
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on Nov 15, 2024 7:11:54 GMT
Then you read my post and accept my explanation? Sorry - I dont understand this. So you put a 1,000 kwh battery at every service station on a motorway - when does it get recharged?. At peak times you will have all chargers in use. To be able to feed these chargers you need 10MW. If you replace this with a smaller supply then the time available to recharge the battery reduces. The only way I can see your system working is if you abandon 5 minute recharging. You assume not enough of them and a constant queue to charge. You could use the same argument for a petrol station, running out of petrol I say petrol stations as in a special place you go to fill up will disappear, because you don't need all the special safety and storage systems needed to keep petrol and diesel, they can be put in almost any carpark, Tesco, Asda etc. To understand this you need to know the sort of power supplies already in place in these places. |
|
|
|
Post by Pacifico on Nov 15, 2024 8:01:14 GMT
Sorry - I dont understand this. So you put a 1,000 kwh battery at every service station on a motorway - when does it get recharged?. At peak times you will have all chargers in use. To be able to feed these chargers you need 10MW. If you replace this with a smaller supply then the time available to recharge the battery reduces. The only way I can see your system working is if you abandon 5 minute recharging. You assume not enough of them and a constant queue to charge. You could use the same argument for a petrol station, running out of petrol I say petrol stations as in a special place you go to fill up will disappear, because you don't need all the special safety and storage systems needed to keep petrol and diesel, they can be put in almost any carpark, Tesco, Asda etc. To understand this you need to know the sort of power supplies already in place in these places. I doubt that many supermarkets have a 10MW power supply - and we are only talking about 20 recharge points after all. I think the closest Tescos to me already has 6 so if it needs to look after all those that currently go to petrol stations it is going to have to expand massively. |
|
|
|
Post by Pacifico on Nov 15, 2024 8:04:50 GMT
Net zero Austria following germany and the uk to green suicide... It is going to be instructive over the next few years. A Trumpian mix of high growth and strong borders will be increasingly attractive as Europe, and Britain, face the economic ruin promised by net zero policies and the high costs of paying for an ever-increasing number of asylum seekers. |
|
|
|
Post by Baron von Lotsov on Nov 15, 2024 9:39:27 GMT
Then you read my post and accept my explanation? Sorry - I dont understand this. So you put a 1,000 kwh battery at every service station on a motorway - when does it get recharged?. At peak times you will have all chargers in use. To be able to feed these chargers you need 10MW. If you replace this with a smaller supply then the time available to recharge the battery reduces. The only way I can see your system working is if you abandon 5 minute recharging. The fatness of cable is a variable business cost so it does not matter. Take a simplified model where you have generator and customer and a wire running between them. You run a garage with ten chargers and that costs so much in terms of copper. You want to expand that to 20 then your customers are double and your costs are double. There is one caveat though to do with statistical averaging. As you go bigger the number of customer at any one time averages out more as the number increases so you gain a bit on the margin you need to allow for. |
|
|
|
Post by Orac on Nov 15, 2024 10:03:09 GMT
The ~ 10 megawatt figure came from a 75kwh battery being charged in 5 minutes (~ 1 megawatt). I simply multiplied this number by 10 to come up for the power demand of 10 cars being charged at once (10 megawatts). That's a significant load. The battery solution would need to be able to supply this happily and regularly and have far more capacity than merely 10 cars. If it helps, i agree that the largest battery in the world would be able to manage this. Then you read my post and accept my explanation? My point is -we will see. You seem to keep forgetting your whole point rests on an unproven technology Here is something to aim for. If a BEV has a 250 + mile range and can recharge in five minutes, you have (more or less) solved the problem. My own view is that the expense of providing this recharging facility reliably will likely be huge and ongoing, even if you have a tech that could, on paper, do it. In other words, it wont happen |
|
|
|
Post by Pacifico on Nov 15, 2024 12:05:56 GMT
Sorry - I dont understand this. So you put a 1,000 kwh battery at every service station on a motorway - when does it get recharged?. At peak times you will have all chargers in use. To be able to feed these chargers you need 10MW. If you replace this with a smaller supply then the time available to recharge the battery reduces. The only way I can see your system working is if you abandon 5 minute recharging. The fatness of cable is a variable business cost so it does not matter. Take a simplified model where you have generator and customer and a wire running between them. You run a garage with ten chargers and that costs so much in terms of copper. You want to expand that to 20 then your customers are double and your costs are double. There is one caveat though to do with statistical averaging. As you go bigger the number of customer at any one time averages out more as the number increases so you gain a bit on the margin you need to allow for. Yes, but that 10GW has to come from somewhere and there simply is not the capacity in the Grid. New developments are already on hold for years and if you are now saying that existing developments that already have a power supply need to be redone and upgraded then you are looking at decades of delay. In isolation some of these 'solutions' to the problems of EV's look great - but you have to live in the world as it is. |
|
|
|
Post by Orac on Nov 15, 2024 12:33:20 GMT
Then you read my post and accept my explanation? The only way I can see your system working is if you abandon 5 minute recharging. Or have a much larger battery that can hold a whole day's expected demand and let it recharge overnight |
|
|
|
Post by Baron von Lotsov on Nov 15, 2024 13:13:35 GMT
The fatness of cable is a variable business cost so it does not matter. Take a simplified model where you have generator and customer and a wire running between them. You run a garage with ten chargers and that costs so much in terms of copper. You want to expand that to 20 then your customers are double and your costs are double. There is one caveat though to do with statistical averaging. As you go bigger the number of customer at any one time averages out more as the number increases so you gain a bit on the margin you need to allow for. Yes, but that 10GW has to come from somewhere and there simply is not the capacity in the Grid. New developments are already on hold for years and if you are now saying that existing developments that already have a power supply need to be redone and upgraded then you are looking at decades of delay. In isolation some of these 'solutions' to the problems of EV's look great - but you have to live in the world as it is. Well it is time to do some work then. I hear some new wind turbines are being installed up in the seas somewhere above Scotland. These are the huge type and give out 30x the power of the ones of a decade or so ago. It seems the larger you build them the cheaper the power is. Grid loading and synchronisation is a complicated topic and way above the understanding of the forum. On solution is to link a flywheel up to a power station which copes with large surges. You can retrofit an old coal power station with one of these as you already have the generator and cables linking to the grid. |
|
|
|
Post by besoeker3 on Nov 15, 2024 13:50:48 GMT
Yes, but that 10GW has to come from somewhere and there simply is not the capacity in the Grid. New developments are already on hold for years and if you are now saying that existing developments that already have a power supply need to be redone and upgraded then you are looking at decades of delay. In isolation some of these 'solutions' to the problems of EV's look great - but you have to live in the world as it is. Well it is time to do some work then. I hear some new wind turbines are being installed up in the seas somewhere above Scotland. These are the huge type and give out 30x the power of the ones of a decade or so ago. It seems the larger you build them the cheaper the power is. Grid loading and synchronisation is a complicated topic and way above the understanding of the forum. On solution is to link a flywheel up to a power station which copes with large surges. You can retrofit an old coal power station with one of these as you already have the generator and cables linking to the grid. is the crux. |
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on Nov 15, 2024 20:37:56 GMT
You assume not enough of them and a constant queue to charge. You could use the same argument for a petrol station, running out of petrol I say petrol stations as in a special place you go to fill up will disappear, because you don't need all the special safety and storage systems needed to keep petrol and diesel, they can be put in almost any carpark, Tesco, Asda etc. To understand this you need to know the sort of power supplies already in place in these places. I doubt that many supermarkets have a 10MW power supply - and we are only talking about 20 recharge points after all. I think the closest Tescos to me already has 6 so if it needs to look after all those that currently go to petrol stations it is going to have to expand massively. They don't need 10mw. |
|
