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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2024 9:00:09 GMT
Labour is indeed fortunate in who their opponents are. Because only the appalling Tories can make Labour look like an improvement - at least to those of us having to earn a living as opposed to those whingeing from the comfort of their armchairs all day. Do you not realise that it is going to cost Tesco at least £800 pa more to employ you due to this budget? Quite possibly. I said I had qualms about the NI increase for employers which they must pass on somehow, either in the form of lower wages, ie smaller pay increases, staff savings in the form of fewer staff or less overtime, or higher prices for customers. And there is little room for the latter if Tesco wants to retain market share. In most cases it will be workers who indirectly foot the bill.
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Post by zanygame on Nov 3, 2024 9:27:53 GMT
Got it thanks. Yes I agree. The land value reflects the amount someone is prepared to pay to live in the UK. That value is increased/decreased by the society the government creates. But I believe there is a far larger determinant on the price of that land and that is how much of it is for sale to build on. We know very many people would be happy to pay the taxes in this country and move here (God knows how much we have to spend keeping them out) But our government has invited millions of them to join us but without freeing up the land for them to live on. It is my view that the landowners are influencing our government to artificially keep the value of land high. 1,On your first paragraph This was my point here. I feel relieved you have taken my words as an attempt to communicate an idea rather than attempt to make you look wrong (ie a debate). My point was very limited 2,On your second paragraph This is what i call (or can be called) the monopoly dimension of land price. It's the explanation for the price of land that comes from the fact that, unlike other services and goods, you can't add or move land where it is wanted. The only circumstances in which land doesn't have this as a significant explanation of price is a frontier situation in which there is a lot of available land and very little infrastructure. In fact, to put it in a simpler way, the only circumstances in which land doesn't hold this monopoly dimension of price is where the price is zero. Think about it - the only reason you would pay a high price to be near a school and public transport is because there is no way for an alternative provider to move extra land in to that situation for a lower price. The people holding land in the situation have a kind of monopoly in that you logically can't replace these people with anyone else. This is why i think the planning angle is a bit true but not very true. If you were to release greenbelt land into development, the 'new land' would take on a value reflective of government and the surrounding infrastructure (ie the price of surrounding land), rather than bring the price of surrounding land down. It may be a bit of both, but far more the former than the latter. The net result would be an absolute bonanza for the rich, Landon being surrounded by migrant flats full of Africans / Asians and everyone's standard of living falling (except the landowners who would buy their own islands). 3,On your third paragraph. The way to solve this without corruption would be to set a democratically decided quota and allow potential immigrants to bid against each other for those positions and for the resulting revenues to be put into government services. This would stop the corruption because all the value of UK society that is currently being collected privately would be pre-collected publicly and so there is no part of the price people are willing to pay left to collect privately4,On your last paragraph - I agree. However, this is a giant corrupt beast that extends into government itself. 1, I always prefer clarification to argument. Its why despite our very different views on many aspects I enjoy debate with you. 2, I agree to an extent, but much of the non built on land in the UK is near to the services you describe, its just not allowed to be built on. No one needs to move it they just need to rename it building land instead of agricultural land. Does it shoot up in value if you do this? Yes, but that increase would be considerably less if natural competition were allowed. If a developer wants to build 50 houses and he has a choice of 10 separate fields to build on then normal negotiations bring the price down. If 10 developers want to build 50 houses and have a choice of one field to build on normal negotiations drive prices up. Part of you issue is an assumption that there is a lack of land left to build on, but in reality only 11% of England is built on and 1% more would provide all the land needed for the current population. 3, I don't think there needs to be a connection between the number of people wishing to move here and the number we allow to move here. I am certainly reluctant to make such movement about bringing money into the country (buying your way in) But we both know this is a vastly bigger issue, one the whole Western world suffers from. A, Aging population low birth rate. B, Historical wealth running out and 2nd and 3rd world competition. C, Ever increasing services wanted by a public that does not want to pay for them. Personally I don't think forever expanding our population is the answer, but try suggesting any alternatives to the cake and eat it society we live in. 4, Yes definitely. The landowners could not achieve there goals without insiders in Government. For me this could be the real proof that this Labour government are leaving corruption behind. If they keep their promise to force the release of land. I don't think there would be resistance from many farmers who in this difficult time would gladly sell a bit of less productive land to get some much needed cash in.
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Post by sandypine on Nov 3, 2024 10:44:12 GMT
1,On your first paragraph This was my point here. I feel relieved you have taken my words as an attempt to communicate an idea rather than attempt to make you look wrong (ie a debate). My point was very limited 2,On your second paragraph This is what i call (or can be called) the monopoly dimension of land price. It's the explanation for the price of land that comes from the fact that, unlike other services and goods, you can't add or move land where it is wanted. The only circumstances in which land doesn't have this as a significant explanation of price is a frontier situation in which there is a lot of available land and very little infrastructure. In fact, to put it in a simpler way, the only circumstances in which land doesn't hold this monopoly dimension of price is where the price is zero. Think about it - the only reason you would pay a high price to be near a school and public transport is because there is no way for an alternative provider to move extra land in to that situation for a lower price. The people holding land in the situation have a kind of monopoly in that you logically can't replace these people with anyone else. This is why i think the planning angle is a bit true but not very true. If you were to release greenbelt land into development, the 'new land' would take on a value reflective of government and the surrounding infrastructure (ie the price of surrounding land), rather than bring the price of surrounding land down. It may be a bit of both, but far more the former than the latter. The net result would be an absolute bonanza for the rich, Landon being surrounded by migrant flats full of Africans / Asians and everyone's standard of living falling (except the landowners who would buy their own islands). 3,On your third paragraph. The way to solve this without corruption would be to set a democratically decided quota and allow potential immigrants to bid against each other for those positions and for the resulting revenues to be put into government services. This would stop the corruption because all the value of UK society that is currently being collected privately would be pre-collected publicly and so there is no part of the price people are willing to pay left to collect privately4,On your last paragraph - I agree. However, this is a giant corrupt beast that extends into government itself. 1, I always prefer clarification to argument. Its why despite our very different views on many aspects I enjoy debate with you. 2, I agree to an extent, but much of the non built on land in the UK is near to the services you describe, its just not allowed to be built on. No one needs to move it they just need to rename it building land instead of agricultural land. Does it shoot up in value if you do this? Yes, but that increase would be considerably less if natural competition were allowed. If a developer wants to build 50 houses and he has a choice of 10 separate fields to build on then normal negotiations bring the price down. If 10 developers want to build 50 houses and have a choice of one field to build on normal negotiations drive prices up. Part of you issue is an assumption that there is a lack of land left to build on, but in reality only 11% of England is built on and 1% more would provide all the land needed for the current population. 3, I don't think there needs to be a connection between the number of people wishing to move here and the number we allow to move here. I am certainly reluctant to make such movement about bringing money into the country (buying your way in) But we both know this is a vastly bigger issue, one the whole Western world suffers from. A, Aging population low birth rate. B, Historical wealth running out and 2nd and 3rd world competition. C, Ever increasing services wanted by a public that does not want to pay for them. Personally I don't think forever expanding our population is the answer, but try suggesting any alternatives to the cake and eat it society we live in. 4, Yes definitely. The landowners could not achieve there goals without insiders in Government. For me this could be the real proof that this Labour government are leaving corruption behind. If they keep their promise to force the release of land. I don't think there would be resistance from many farmers who in this difficult time would gladly sell a bit of less productive land to get some much needed cash in. 2 But freeing up land may bring prices down in the short term but once you run out of excess fields then prices will rise again in the meantime all that has happened is that urban sprawl has been extended with all the negative impacts on the country that will have. A new green belt will be designated and pressure to release that will be the same. Land is finite, you have to stop somewhere, the dystopian future is closer than we think as boosters present their living and urban plans we have seen before but now with the added complication of Multiculturalism to poison the mix. Best to stop now and if possible send it into reverse, we have lost many areas to Liberal left's idea of diverse society. Time to knock it on the head and take care of one's own. We cannot help the world as by and large they do not want to help themselves in any way but for selfish way.
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 3, 2024 11:33:40 GMT
I hate to point out the obvious but the availability of building land is controlled by politicians not landowners.
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Post by zanygame on Nov 3, 2024 13:04:51 GMT
1, I always prefer clarification to argument. Its why despite our very different views on many aspects I enjoy debate with you. 2, I agree to an extent, but much of the non built on land in the UK is near to the services you describe, its just not allowed to be built on. No one needs to move it they just need to rename it building land instead of agricultural land. Does it shoot up in value if you do this? Yes, but that increase would be considerably less if natural competition were allowed. If a developer wants to build 50 houses and he has a choice of 10 separate fields to build on then normal negotiations bring the price down. If 10 developers want to build 50 houses and have a choice of one field to build on normal negotiations drive prices up. Part of you issue is an assumption that there is a lack of land left to build on, but in reality only 11% of England is built on and 1% more would provide all the land needed for the current population. 3, I don't think there needs to be a connection between the number of people wishing to move here and the number we allow to move here. I am certainly reluctant to make such movement about bringing money into the country (buying your way in) But we both know this is a vastly bigger issue, one the whole Western world suffers from. A, Aging population low birth rate. B, Historical wealth running out and 2nd and 3rd world competition. C, Ever increasing services wanted by a public that does not want to pay for them. Personally I don't think forever expanding our population is the answer, but try suggesting any alternatives to the cake and eat it society we live in. 4, Yes definitely. The landowners could not achieve there goals without insiders in Government. For me this could be the real proof that this Labour government are leaving corruption behind. If they keep their promise to force the release of land. I don't think there would be resistance from many farmers who in this difficult time would gladly sell a bit of less productive land to get some much needed cash in. 2 But freeing up land may bring prices down in the short term but once you run out of excess fields then prices will rise again in the meantime all that has happened is that urban sprawl has been extended with all the negative impacts on the country that will have. A new green belt will be designated and pressure to release that will be the same. Land is finite, you have to stop somewhere, the dystopian future is closer than we think as boosters present their living and urban plans we have seen before but now with the added complication of Multiculturalism to poison the mix. Best to stop now and if possible send it into reverse, we have lost many areas to Liberal left's idea of diverse society. Time to knock it on the head and take care of one's own. We cannot help the world as by and large they do not want to help themselves in any way but for selfish way. That's one hell of an assumption. It assumes you keep bringing immigrants in until theirs NO land left. But as I explained 11% of land is built on, 1% more would be sufficient for 6 million more people. 1%
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Post by zanygame on Nov 3, 2024 13:06:08 GMT
I hate to point out the obvious but the availability of building land is controlled by politicians not landowners. You think the land owners are influencing the politicians? Hmm, next you'll say money doesn't influence them either.
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Post by sandypine on Nov 3, 2024 13:34:30 GMT
2 But freeing up land may bring prices down in the short term but once you run out of excess fields then prices will rise again in the meantime all that has happened is that urban sprawl has been extended with all the negative impacts on the country that will have. A new green belt will be designated and pressure to release that will be the same. Land is finite, you have to stop somewhere, the dystopian future is closer than we think as boosters present their living and urban plans we have seen before but now with the added complication of Multiculturalism to poison the mix. Best to stop now and if possible send it into reverse, we have lost many areas to Liberal left's idea of diverse society. Time to knock it on the head and take care of one's own. We cannot help the world as by and large they do not want to help themselves in any way but for selfish way. That's one hell of an assumption. It assumes you keep bringing immigrants in until theirs NO land left. But as I explained 11% of land is built on, 1% more would be sufficient for 6 million more people. 1%However the croppable land, and that is where the majority of new housing will be built, is about 24% of the total UK land. Rough grazing land, mountains, moorlands etc will not attract many builders, if any. So that jumps up to 4%, So if we carry on and build as you suggest we will lose approx 17% of our croppable land to house 6 million, We are losing croppable land to solar panels at an alarming rate and new infrastructure in country areas as links will be needed. If we carried out the same exercise in ten years time then our croppable land would be 20%. It is unsustainable. I think my stats are correct.
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Post by zanygame on Nov 3, 2024 13:42:11 GMT
That's one hell of an assumption. It assumes you keep bringing immigrants in until theirs NO land left. But as I explained 11% of land is built on, 1% more would be sufficient for 6 million more people. 1%However the croppable land, and that is where the majority of new housing will be built, is about 24% of the total UK land. Rough grazing land, mountains, moorlands etc will not attract many builders, if any. So that jumps up to 4%, So if we carry on and build as you suggest we will lose approx 17% of our croppable land to house 6 million, We are losing croppable land to solar panels at an alarming rate and new infrastructure in country areas as links will be needed. If we carried out the same exercise in ten years time then our croppable land would be 20%. It is unsustainable. I think my stats are correct. It only jumps to 4% if you think humans don't value mountains moorlands etc. And if you think we need 24% of our land for crops. But we have not been self sufficient in many things for many years. If you are suggesting I make people homeless so we can grow more meat I would have to disagree. If you really think food self sufficiency is critical there are a large number of ways to achieve this without making houses unaffordable and destroying our economy. BTW 63% of England is arable.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2024 13:54:23 GMT
I hate to point out the obvious but the availability of building land is controlled by politicians not landowners. You think the land owners are influencing the politicians? Hmm, next you'll say money doesn't influence them either. Rich people give vast sums to both main parties. There is tacit influence here. Parties know that if they piss their rich donors off too much the donations will cease. The rich donors themselves know they know this which is why they donate in the first place. It protects their interests. It gives them tacit leverage. And goes some way towards explaining the reluctance of Labour to impose meaningful wealth taxes, preferring instead to hit businesses and indirectly workers. The rich after all are not stupid. They do not give away millions for nothing. And landowners' ability to influence politicians depends upon how much liquid cash they have available to donate. I harbour the deep suspicion of nods and winks and furtive conversations with rich donors in which the latter agree to bankroll a party because they support policies A,B, and C, but only if the party does not do X,Y and Z to their own interests. Anyone who thinks this is not taking place is incredibly naïve in my view. Which is why you as an employer are picking up the tab for increased spending rather than the wealthy elites. Incidentally, whilst Labour promised not to increase taxes on working people - not wholly kept since freezing of tax thresholds for another four years effectively does exactly that - they also promised not to increase VAT, Income Tax and NI contributions. These promises overlap but are distinct from one another. They did not, for example promise not to increase employees' NI only. They promised not to increase NI full stop. So hiking it so much for employers' is a broken pledge right there. His promise that everything was fully costed with no tax increases necessary beyond the ones in the manifesto also looks like an obvious lie. I knew such things were coming. He did it to us - current and former Labour party members - saying what we wanted to hear and meaning very little of it. The process of breaking his pledges quickly began once he became leader. Some of us in the party knew what he was playing at and never supported him but enough were taken in. So he has form for telling people what they want to hear to get elected and then doing something rather different which was more inline with his real intentions once he gets in. Many in the media commentariat gave him a free pass on his lies to us because they believed in the direction he was taking the party in. Likewise many in the wider electorate, including if I may so so your good self. Rather than acknowledging his dishonesty with his broken pledges, his breaking of his promises to the party was excused and justified on the basis of pragmatism in response to changed circumstances. Covid and Ukraine helped him get away with that. There was very little recognition of the fact that he never meant his pledges to the membership in the first place and was lying to us from the start. Instead his supporters hailed him - a proven and blatant liar - up to be a man of integrity. There was much gullibility out there amongst many who ended up voting for him. I was not one of them. I knew his true track record of telling calculated lies to win an election. I have spent much of the last five years telling people that if he could lie to us to win a leadership election he was equally capable of lying to the wider electorate to win a general election. And that what he does in office might not conform to what he promises to get there. And so it is proving. Don't anyone say I didn't warn you. The NI hike for employers and the massive tax increases - both of which they promised not to do - are just the first broken promises. There will be others in due course, based upon what he regards as being politically expedient, regardless of any pledges made.
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Post by Orac on Nov 3, 2024 14:23:46 GMT
1,On your first paragraph This was my point here. I feel relieved you have taken my words as an attempt to communicate an idea rather than attempt to make you look wrong (ie a debate). My point was very limited 2,On your second paragraph This is what i call (or can be called) the monopoly dimension of land price. It's the explanation for the price of land that comes from the fact that, unlike other services and goods, you can't add or move land where it is wanted. The only circumstances in which land doesn't have this as a significant explanation of price is a frontier situation in which there is a lot of available land and very little infrastructure. In fact, to put it in a simpler way, the only circumstances in which land doesn't hold this monopoly dimension of price is where the price is zero. Think about it - the only reason you would pay a high price to be near a school and public transport is because there is no way for an alternative provider to move extra land in to that situation for a lower price. The people holding land in the situation have a kind of monopoly in that you logically can't replace these people with anyone else. This is why i think the planning angle is a bit true but not very true. If you were to release greenbelt land into development, the 'new land' would take on a value reflective of government and the surrounding infrastructure (ie the price of surrounding land), rather than bring the price of surrounding land down. It may be a bit of both, but far more the former than the latter. The net result would be an absolute bonanza for the rich, Landon being surrounded by migrant flats full of Africans / Asians and everyone's standard of living falling (except the landowners who would buy their own islands). 3,On your third paragraph. The way to solve this without corruption would be to set a democratically decided quota and allow potential immigrants to bid against each other for those positions and for the resulting revenues to be put into government services. This would stop the corruption because all the value of UK society that is currently being collected privately would be pre-collected publicly and so there is no part of the price people are willing to pay left to collect privately4,On your last paragraph - I agree. However, this is a giant corrupt beast that extends into government itself. 1, I always prefer clarification to argument. Its why despite our very different views on many aspects I enjoy debate with you. 2, I agree to an extent, but much of the non built on land in the UK is near to the services you describe, its just not allowed to be built on. No one needs to move it they just need to rename it building land instead of agricultural land. Does it shoot up in value if you do this? Yes, but that increase would be considerably less if natural competition were allowed. If a developer wants to build 50 houses and he has a choice of 10 separate fields to build on then normal negotiations bring the price down. If 10 developers want to build 50 houses and have a choice of one field to build on normal negotiations drive prices up. Part of you issue is an assumption that there is a lack of land left to build on, but in reality only 11% of England is built on and 1% more would provide all the land needed for the current population. 3, I don't think there needs to be a connection between the number of people wishing to move here and the number we allow to move here. I am certainly reluctant to make such movement about bringing money into the country (buying your way in) But we both know this is a vastly bigger issue, one the whole Western world suffers from. A, Aging population low birth rate. B, Historical wealth running out and 2nd and 3rd world competition. C, Ever increasing services wanted by a public that does not want to pay for them. Personally I don't think forever expanding our population is the answer, but try suggesting any alternatives to the cake and eat it society we live in. 4, Yes definitely. The landowners could not achieve there goals without insiders in Government. For me this could be the real proof that this Labour government are leaving corruption behind. If they keep their promise to force the release of land. I don't think there would be resistance from many farmers who in this difficult time would gladly sell a bit of less productive land to get some much needed cash in. 2 To an extent, but nothing like you might imagine it would. Land takes on a monopoly price and the greenbelt land, just like all land, is the only land 'in that situation' The way it would usually work is that people moving into greenbelt land would sell to move and send a down signal to price. However, if you are moving Africans and Asians into the new space, then the 'selling' signal is In Africa or Asia, not the UK. If you did this, a lot of the land would sit in long term land speculation awaiting half of Africa to be moved in. 3 This confuses me. You have said often that you are in favour of reducing immigration, but here you appear to be arguing that a quota would be bad because it would reduce immigration. You also seem to be freely weaving in some race revenge narratives. Competition is building your own house and using it to compete against others, not taking a house off another group and using it's advantages to compete against them. 4 As i explain, it would help the rich and some people in Africa, not the UK public who would just shoulder the costs
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Post by zanygame on Nov 3, 2024 14:42:48 GMT
1, I always prefer clarification to argument. Its why despite our very different views on many aspects I enjoy debate with you. 2, I agree to an extent, but much of the non built on land in the UK is near to the services you describe, its just not allowed to be built on. No one needs to move it they just need to rename it building land instead of agricultural land. Does it shoot up in value if you do this? Yes, but that increase would be considerably less if natural competition were allowed. If a developer wants to build 50 houses and he has a choice of 10 separate fields to build on then normal negotiations bring the price down. If 10 developers want to build 50 houses and have a choice of one field to build on normal negotiations drive prices up. Part of you issue is an assumption that there is a lack of land left to build on, but in reality only 11% of England is built on and 1% more would provide all the land needed for the current population. 3, I don't think there needs to be a connection between the number of people wishing to move here and the number we allow to move here. I am certainly reluctant to make such movement about bringing money into the country (buying your way in) But we both know this is a vastly bigger issue, one the whole Western world suffers from. A, Aging population low birth rate. B, Historical wealth running out and 2nd and 3rd world competition. C, Ever increasing services wanted by a public that does not want to pay for them. Personally I don't think forever expanding our population is the answer, but try suggesting any alternatives to the cake and eat it society we live in. 4, Yes definitely. The landowners could not achieve there goals without insiders in Government. For me this could be the real proof that this Labour government are leaving corruption behind. If they keep their promise to force the release of land. I don't think there would be resistance from many farmers who in this difficult time would gladly sell a bit of less productive land to get some much needed cash in. 2 To an extent, but nothing like you might imagine it would. Land takes on a monopoly price and the greenbelt land, just like all land, is the only land 'in that situation' The way it would usually work is that people moving into greenbelt land would sell to move and send a down signal to price. However, if you are moving Africans and Asians into the new space, then the 'selling' signal is In Africa or Asia, not the UK. If you did this, a lot of the land would sit in long term land speculation awaiting half of Africa to be moved in. 3 This confuses me. You have said often that you are in favour of reducing immigration, but here you appear to be arguing that a quota would be bad because it would reduce immigration. You also seem to be freely weaving in some race revenge narratives. Competition is building your own house and using it to compete against others, not taking a house off another group and using it's advantages to compete against them. 4 As i explain, it would help the rich and some people in Africa, not the UK public who would just shoulder the costs 2, Cheaper housing would not signal Africa or Asia if we controlled/stopped immigration. Further I would argue most coming here for those places are more interested in safety than housing. 3, Allow me to clarify. I am suggesting we don't base a quota on ability to pay, not that we don't cap immigration. 4, I disagree, more land for sale means cheaper land which helps the young and poor while reducing the amount paid per acre to the rich. The immigration argument is a distraction as it relies on the idea that we build more houses so we can invite more immigrants which is something I am against.
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Post by Orac on Nov 3, 2024 14:59:02 GMT
2 To an extent, but nothing like you might imagine it would. Land takes on a monopoly price and the greenbelt land, just like all land, is the only land 'in that situation' The way it would usually work is that people moving into greenbelt land would sell to move and send a down signal to price. However, if you are moving Africans and Asians into the new space, then the 'selling' signal is In Africa or Asia, not the UK. If you did this, a lot of the land would sit in long term land speculation awaiting half of Africa to be moved in. 3 This confuses me. You have said often that you are in favour of reducing immigration, but here you appear to be arguing that a quota would be bad because it would reduce immigration. You also seem to be freely weaving in some race revenge narratives. Competition is building your own house and using it to compete against others, not taking a house off another group and using it's advantages to compete against them. 4 As i explain, it would help the rich and some people in Africa, not the UK public who would just shoulder the costs 2, Cheaper housing would not signal Africa or Asia if we controlled/stopped immigration. Further I would argue most coming here for those places are more interested in safety than housing. 3, Allow me to clarify. I am suggesting we don't base a quota on ability to pay, not that we don't cap immigration. 4, I disagree, more land for sale means cheaper land which helps the young and poor while reducing the amount paid per acre to the rich. The immigration argument is a distraction as it relies on the idea that we build more houses so we can invite more immigrants which is something I am against. 2 If you reduced immigration to something the British public would find reasonable, then the policy of releasing greenbelt land becomes 'arguable' rather than merely an abusive policy I'll give you one guess what Labour would do? Here is a hint - they aren't remotely going to reduce immigration. Unless you intend to keep Africans safely in open fields, I don't get your safety vs housing comment. 3 What is your argument against making people pay at the gate? Public policy is supposed to benefit the country, it isn't supposed to be charity operation for landowners and Africans. 4 It can do to some extent. However, if you also pour millions of Africans in, it wont work like that except in the negative sense - ie land prices will be low because the uk will be a total tip
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Post by sandypine on Nov 3, 2024 15:34:22 GMT
However the croppable land, and that is where the majority of new housing will be built, is about 24% of the total UK land. Rough grazing land, mountains, moorlands etc will not attract many builders, if any. So that jumps up to 4%, So if we carry on and build as you suggest we will lose approx 17% of our croppable land to house 6 million, We are losing croppable land to solar panels at an alarming rate and new infrastructure in country areas as links will be needed. If we carried out the same exercise in ten years time then our croppable land would be 20%. It is unsustainable. I think my stats are correct. It only jumps to 4% if you think humans don't value mountains moorlands etc. And if you think we need 24% of our land for crops. But we have not been self sufficient in many things for many years. If you are suggesting I make people homeless so we can grow more meat I would have to disagree. If you really think food self sufficiency is critical there are a large number of ways to achieve this without making houses unaffordable and destroying our economy. BTW 63% of England is arable. I have been referring to UK as it is the UK that is a national entity as regards immigration. Valuing mountains and moorlands is not the same as allowing a portion to be built on and realistically only a very small number of new developments will be on any areas more than two hundred metres above sea level. Temperature drops and rainfall increases quite dramatically. Temp drop can be as much as 2C for 200 metre height gain and a consequent increase in rainfall although that has many other factors as well. Population densities drop dramatically above 200 metres
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Post by zanygame on Nov 3, 2024 15:49:22 GMT
2, Cheaper housing would not signal Africa or Asia if we controlled/stopped immigration. Further I would argue most coming here for those places are more interested in safety than housing. 3, Allow me to clarify. I am suggesting we don't base a quota on ability to pay, not that we don't cap immigration. 4, I disagree, more land for sale means cheaper land which helps the young and poor while reducing the amount paid per acre to the rich. The immigration argument is a distraction as it relies on the idea that we build more houses so we can invite more immigrants which is something I am against. 2 If you reduced immigration to something the British public would find reasonable, then the policy of releasing greenbelt land becomes 'arguable' rather than merely an abusive policy I'll give you one guess what Labour would do? Here is a hint - they aren't remotely going to reduce immigration. Unless you intend to keep Africans safely in open fields, I don't get your safety vs housing comment. 3 What is your argument against making people pay at the gate? Public policy is supposed to benefit the country, it isn't supposed to be charity operation for landowners and Africans. 4 It can do to some extent. However, if you also pour millions of Africans in, it wont work like that except in the negative sense - ie land prices will be low because the uk will be a total tip2, No, we already need those homes for the people living here. We are about a million short. And its not just about enough homes its about making them affordable like they used to be when we bought our first homes. That would be the single biggest thing we could do for our economy, free up all the money that currently goes in mortgages for people to spend on life. 3, That we get some wealthy but unpleasant people moving here, people who expect something back for their investment. Plus if we are to allow anyone in it should only be ones we need for jobs that can't be filled. 4, ONE LAST TIME. I am not suggesting we build houses so we can move Africa in. I want them for the millions we have already invited to live here and the children of Brits already living here.
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 3, 2024 15:59:53 GMT
I hate to point out the obvious but the availability of building land is controlled by politicians not landowners. You think the land owners are influencing the politicians? Hmm, next you'll say money doesn't influence them either. Land owners are influencing all politicians to block construction? - seems a bit of a stretch when you consider there are numerous other groups peddling their influence and they do not always align in their desired outcomes. Land owners are not the ones who have got the politicians to implement layer upon layer of red tape specifically designed to prevent the building of anything.
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