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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2024 11:08:47 GMT
Nigel's comments on the budget, is he right? A fox in the henhouse. More a rat in a sewer, lol. But he made his points well and many of them were good ones. Though not all. Yes we are in decline to an extent that neither Tories nor Labour will admit. But his desired solution it seems is to allow the rich to become ever richer. Part of our problem though is that too much wealth is being sucked out of the pockets of productive workers by non-productive owners, and far too much is ending up in the hands of a wealthy few to the detriment of the rest of us. We don't manufacture all that much anymore either which is not helping, and leaving investment in future technologies and industries to the private sector just has not been working due to an excess of short termism. Government actually directing investment in infrastructure is essential, though we need to be removing unnecessary obstacles to private sector investment too, particularly re housing. And the government is planning a reform to planning laws with this in mind. And one thing Farage and his supporters will never accept is the fact that most economists have pointed out that Brexit has actually accelerated the decline and done further damage to growth.
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Post by buccaneer on Nov 1, 2024 11:13:03 GMT
If that service wasn't provided they'd be no sale. Hence they are productive. In the same way that without the public sector there'd be no schools, NHS, armed forces, emergency services, rubbish collection, street sweeping, actual streets or indeed any of the infrastructure that you take for granted. So by that token, the public sector is also productive. Not if they over employ , especially on pet projects and waste more money than they accumulate. Just how productive is the public sector to the UK economy compared to the private sector? And how much wastage is foisted upon the average private taxpayer who keeps them in a job, with a secure pension and what not?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2024 11:24:02 GMT
No one would last long at the DWP if they spent all day doing bugger all as you assume one in three are doing. For one thing most are employed on temporary contracts via agencies so are not directly employed by the DWP at all initially. The ones that doss or mess about or who are just hopelessly crap do not get their contracts renewed. The ones that work hard and who are good at the job get properly taken on. Which itself weeds out most of the likely dossers.
Furthermore, all DWP staff have frequent performance reviews, and underperformers cracked down upon. Eventually if they do not come up to scratch they are got rid of, but most do because the ones who wouldn't have mostly been weeded out before even being properly taken on.
Yes not all staff are up to the excellent quality of my friend, primarily because pay has declined in real terms to such an extent that it has become harder to recruit top quality. They have to make the best of the material they can get applying for the jobs. You get what you pay for in the end. But the hardworking ones rise in the ranks whilst those performing too poorly are generally let go of.
You probably assume the unions make this impossible, but this is a myth. Unions only have effective power to challenge dismissals or disciplinary processes where these are illegal or unreasonable. My friend isn't even in the union, since she chooses not to be.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2024 11:27:27 GMT
In the same way that without the public sector there'd be no schools, NHS, armed forces, emergency services, rubbish collection, street sweeping, actual streets or indeed any of the infrastructure that you take for granted. So by that token, the public sector is also productive. Not if they over employ , especially on pet projects and waste more money than they accumulate. Just how productive is the public sector to the UK economy compared to the private sector? And how much wastage is foisted upon the average private taxpayer who keeps them in a job, with a secure pension and what not? That is just un-evidenced assumptions on your part. You started by claiming the public sector was entirely unproductive. When the idiocy of this was pointed out you fell back on them being less productive on the assumption - apparently an ideological one - that because they are not in the private sector they must be wasting more. Tell that to the nurses, lol
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2024 11:38:11 GMT
Incidentally. although it was a long time ago now, as a young man in the 80s I worked for several years in the public sector, in my case for local government in the form of my council's parks department, eg cutting grass and maintaining flower beds, cutting hedges and that sort of thing. Back then this work paid substantially more than private companies carrying out similar work, most of them being cowboy outfits. But one thing we did not do was doss around all day. We did actually work hard. Of course most such work for a variety of reasons was impossible when it was very wet weather, and on such days we might go home early on full pay. But we would still lose money because a third of our pay would be made up of bonus payments, and a day not working at all would often mean we would lose most of that for that particular week. No one dossed around doing bugger all unless forced to by inclement weather, and if anyone did doss around they'd soon have been sacked.
In fact a friend of mine who was just inherently crap at the job got sacked after only two weeks, lol.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2024 11:58:33 GMT
Well my friend who works for the DWP who used to work alongside me in the private sector is one of the most hardworking and productive people I have ever known. Sorry if that does not fit your assumptions. She has told me what her job entails and it is a much tougher job than manning a checkout at Tesco. And believe me or not she does not lie to me about such things. If her job was an absolute doddle she might not advertise that fact publicly but she would be honest with me. As for wastage, that often results from people at the top of the food chain conjuring up ideas that are shite in practice on the shop floor. And believe me that happens in the private sector too. It is for example rife in Tesco. I see wastage all the time but such decisions are forced upon us higher up than store level, and the managers at store level just do what they are told because they get no brownie points for making difficulties even about stupid shit. Just one example from my store. Although it is starting to pick up a bit now as November 5th approaches, we have been paying a member of staff to man the firework stall all day which is situated right next to the self service tills which are themselves manned by two people wearing headsets. And who can thus request additional support when they need it. Yet the guy or girl manning the firework stall has been getting as few as one customer per hour, and they are spending most of their time standing around doing bugger all and bored witless. Now all of us have been firework trained and we can see that until customer volume picks up it makes far more sense to have one of the self service staff sell the fireworks on the rare occasion a customer wants to buy some rather than pay someone to stand around doing bugger all all day. But alas someone at head office thinks its a good idea. So there we have it. Just one example of wastage. I just never understand why management anywhere doesn't get this but if you want to know how to reduce wastage on the shopfloor, consult the staff working on it. Because we see where the wastage is happening all day long. You still don't get it. Doesn't matter what your anecdotal evidence is. For every 2 of her there is probably at least 1 bludger who is carried by the likes of her, or who even earns double her salary and produces next to nothing. You speak as though my lived experience means every single soul who works in the public sector should be thrown on the scrap heap. Which of course, is completely silly. Yes, Tescos may waste food, not sure how that relates to money exactly, or even compared to profits, but is a possibility. Yet, your average SME cannot afford such wastage when compared to Tescos, and Tescos cannot afford such wastage compared to the public sector. And you don't get it either. If my anecdotal evidence counts for nothing, then clearly so does yours. And your own ideologically driven assumptions in regards to how it must be are just that. Assumptions. They are not evidence. Personally, I do actually know people who work in the public sector, and what they tell me of their reality in no way matches your assumptions. That fact is more persuasive to me than you are to be honest.
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 1, 2024 12:03:57 GMT
Train drivers just got a £10k a year increase with no changes to working agreements or productivity levels. The whole £10 Billion raised by the increase in NI announced in the budget will go to Public Sector workers as increased pay (without strings) - so taking money from Private Sector workers and giving it to those in the Public Sector. Productivity in the Public Sector is has stagnated for almost 3 decades - and all the while spending has increased massively. So if you are expecting to see any improvement in delivery from the public Sector I suspect you are going to be mightily disappointed. Public sector pay has been cut by 20 percent in real terms in the last 14 years. You don't get higher productivity that way. Pay rises in line with inflation should not be dependent upon higher productivity. Real terms pay increases above inflation should be, unless after years of de facto pay cuts higher pay is needed to recruit and retain sufficient staff of sufficient calibre.
This notion that just to maintain real terms pay at current levels, fewer employees need to be doing ever more work to an ever greater extent year on year might sound great if you are the vastly overpaid CEO. But it is not a recipe for prosperity for the rest of us, though it will be a driver of greatly increased mental health problems resulting from stress. Which will itself cost the country a fortune. The equation you seem to have in your head is in real terms all workers getting less than the year before for doing the same work, or doing more than the year before to get the same pay. Sounds great to a wealthy retiree I suppose but would result in an ever more impoverished and over stressed workforce. Public Sector pay has not been cut - they didn't even see a drop during the pandemic unlike the private sector. Every pay deal agreed in the Public Sector since Labour came to power has failed to link to improvements in productivity. Normal improvements in systems and technology drive productivity increases - so yes, workers should be doing more work for the same amount of pay.
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Post by Red Rackham on Nov 1, 2024 12:11:48 GMT
Well like many others I was convinced that there was going to be a big fuel duty increase which would of course have hit many working people. So I was very pleasantly surprised and indeed pleased that she did not do that for precisely the reasons I stated, that it would have hurt millions of working people. The big minimum wage increase was welcome to me since the new rate would be nearly 20p an hour more than my current hourly rate, and my employers' desire to not be known as a minimum wage employer has thus far always resulted in a pay award that lifts us well above the minimum. No guarantee of that latter continuing but Tesco very much does not want to be known as just another minimum wage employer, so I have good hopes that the minimum wage increase will have a beneficial knock on on my pay. The continued freeze on tax thresholds hits me hard though, because it guarantees that I pay full tax on every pound of any increase. So any pay rise I get the government takes 28 percent of. They made a virtue out of the fact that they were not going to extend the threshold freeze beyond 2028 as the Tories planned to to. But that is still four years threshold freezes to come. And the cynic in me immediately notices that the threshold freeze ceases just in time for the next election, and not before. This freeze of course hurts working people of two main types. The low paid, ever larger numbers of whom will be seeing a greater proportion of their incomes becoming taxable. And those on middling salaries who will increasingly be seeing themselves paying a growing part of their incomes at the higher rate. As someone with a host of medical conditions, the extra NHS funding is of course welcome, but since I am struggling with work so much more than I once did, and the days in which I am going to be able to continue working are numbered, I do have concerns about the future of sickness benefits. I am after all still 7 years and 8 months away from a state pension. And the goalposts have been shifted for me since I left school expecting to retire at 65 and now that age has been raised to 67. I gave up smoking 20 years ago so taxes on tobacco do not impact me at all, and I do not drink much alcohol. But with wry amusement I note the fact that when a pint now costs typically over a fiver, reducing the cost by 1p is a bit like pissing in the Atlantic and expecting it to make a difference, lol. And will in any case be entirely undone by the big increase in the minimum wage and in employers' NI contributions insofar as running costs are concerned. So that is effectively little more than a headline grabbing gimmick. If anyone actually notices the pint in their local being a penny cheaper than yesterday, please do give us the good news. I will be surprised if it happens anywhere. It was claimed that Reeves was going to put 7p on fuel duty, but I suspect after looking at her budget and realising it was all stick and no carrot, she reluctantly took a penny of beer duty which will make absolutely no difference to anyone, and decided not to increase fuel duty which is of course welcome and for many people the highlight of dismal budget. The minimum wage isn't really a minimum wage is it, it's the national wage. It was born of good intention but in many respects it's backfired. The problem with imposing a minimum wage coupled with mass immigration is it gives employers a legitimate excuse to keep shop floor pay down. I disagree with pumping extra £billions into the NHS, it needs massive reform not more cash. The NHS is not underfunded, the fact that it spends £40 million a year on diversity managers is testament to that. Also, NHS treatment should not be free to everyone, it's ridiculous that an illegal from the EU receives exactly the same level of NHS treatment as someone who has paid into the system for the past 50 years, it's wrong. But, most economists agree this was not a budget for growth, and clearly Starmer wants to kill of the farming industry, I imagine he's eyeing up farmland to cover with wind turbines. It's going to be a long five years that's for sure.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2024 12:15:02 GMT
Public sector pay has been cut by 20 percent in real terms in the last 14 years. You don't get higher productivity that way. Pay rises in line with inflation should not be dependent upon higher productivity. Real terms pay increases above inflation should be, unless after years of de facto pay cuts higher pay is needed to recruit and retain sufficient staff of sufficient calibre.
This notion that just to maintain real terms pay at current levels, fewer employees need to be doing ever more work to an ever greater extent year on year might sound great if you are the vastly overpaid CEO. But it is not a recipe for prosperity for the rest of us, though it will be a driver of greatly increased mental health problems resulting from stress. Which will itself cost the country a fortune. The equation you seem to have in your head is in real terms all workers getting less than the year before for doing the same work, or doing more than the year before to get the same pay. Sounds great to a wealthy retiree I suppose but would result in an ever more impoverished and over stressed workforce. Public Sector pay has not been cut - they didn't even see a drop during the pandemic unlike the private sector. Every pay deal agreed in the Public Sector since Labour came to power has failed to link to improvements in productivity. Normal improvements in systems and technology drive productivity increases - so yes, workers should be doing more work for the same amount of pay. Frankly the notion that real terms pay has not been cut in the public sector is totally untrue. Remember all those pay freezes? They are real terms pay cuts unless you have zero inflation which we never have had. And below inflation increases are also real terms pay cuts. This has resulted in a recruitment and retention crisis with real terms pay - ask TSM - some 20 percent lower than in 2010. Labour has recognised what you and others fail to. That this had to be reversed, though it cannot be done all in one go. The graph you post is dishonest since it does not measure real terms pay by allowing for inflation.
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Post by Bentley on Nov 1, 2024 12:21:16 GMT
“ The minimum wage isn't really a minimum wage is it, it's the national wage. It was born of good intention but in many respects it's backfired. The problem with imposing a minimum wage coupled with mass immigration is it gives employers a legitimate excuse to keep shop floor pay down.”
I’ve been saying this for years because it’s true . Mass immigration has a negative effect on the poorer paid and that’s one of the reasons why so many poorer paid workers were brexiters . The caring sharing lefties were dishonest enough to use this to besmirch leavers .
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Nov 1, 2024 12:23:12 GMT
In the same way that without the public sector there'd be no schools, NHS, armed forces, emergency services, rubbish collection, street sweeping, actual streets or indeed any of the infrastructure that you take for granted. So by that token, the public sector is also productive. Not if they over employ , especially on pet projects and waste more money than they accumulate. Just how productive is the public sector to the UK economy compared to the private sector? And how much wastage is foisted upon the average private taxpayer who keeps them in a job, with a secure pension and what not? Yes, there's waste in the public sector. As I already said above.
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Nov 1, 2024 12:32:25 GMT
...As for wastage, that often results from people at the top of the food chain conjuring up ideas that are shite in practice on the shop floor... Absolutely. ...I just never understand why management anywhere doesn't get this but if you want to know how to reduce wastage on the shopfloor, consult the staff working on it. Because we see where the wastage is happening all day long. It's because they don't care and often have a totally separate agenda. Sadly, these days "management" is often about creating a solution to a manufactured problem. And that does appear to be prevalent in the public sector.
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Post by ratcliff on Nov 1, 2024 15:47:33 GMT
Ah bless - your public sector ''friends '' again who parrot the standard union/public sector mantra that they are underpaid , overworked and understaffed . Well my friends are far more reliable and honest than you are, informed as you seem to be more by malice than actual experience. You complain about the shite service you get from HMRC. And your solution is to sack a load of them and pay the rest even less. And yet you labour under the comical delusion that this will somehow make things better. Laughable drivel. If the public sector is such an easy place to work and so much better than the private, I really do need to ask the obvious question. Why are you not working in it? Well my friends are far more reliable and honest than you areYou have absolutely no idea what my experience , knowledge , honesty or reliability is so you are making idiotic assumptions just because you appear to believe ( as a Tesco worker) that someone who works for the DWP is beyond reproach and isn't spinning you a yarn when they tell you that they think they are hardworking . Maybe they are more productive compared to the low productivity of the average public sector worker , maybe they aren't . The fact remains - as a Tesco worker your tax is funding their job . They contribute nothing.
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Post by ratcliff on Nov 1, 2024 15:49:40 GMT
No one would last long at the DWP if they spent all day doing bugger all as you assume one in three are doing. For one thing most are employed on temporary contracts via agencies so are not directly employed by the DWP at all initially. The ones that doss or mess about or who are just hopelessly crap do not get their contracts renewed. The ones that work hard and who are good at the job get properly taken on. Which itself weeds out most of the likely dossers. Furthermore, all DWP staff have frequent performance reviews, and underperformers cracked down upon. Eventually if they do not come up to scratch they are got rid of, but most do because the ones who wouldn't have mostly been weeded out before even being properly taken on. Yes not all staff are up to the excellent quality of my friend, primarily because pay has declined in real terms to such an extent that it has become harder to recruit top quality. They have to make the best of the material they can get applying for the jobs. You get what you pay for in the end. But the hardworking ones rise in the ranks whilst those performing too poorly are generally let go of. You probably assume the unions make this impossible, but this is a myth. Unions only have effective power to challenge dismissals or disciplinary processes where these are illegal or unreasonable. My friend isn't even in the union, since she chooses not to be. You know how to spin a good yarn
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Nov 1, 2024 17:16:21 GMT
You have absolutely no idea what my experience , knowledge , honesty or reliability is... Well, I've told you about mine so why don't you tell us about yours? The fact remains - as a Tesco worker your tax is funding their job . They contribute nothing. Nope, we contribute the infrastructure without which you would be living in a cave and Tesco wouldn't have a business.
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