|
|
Post by Toreador on Dec 18, 2022 21:02:41 GMT
Nah, as I've already explained, some start it at the bank, some in the board room, others at the dog track or racecourse. In fact there's a whole lot of places where crime is carried out by the well off and chances are the amounts are probably far greater than the crime committed by poor people. Crime is not solely the territory of the poor but it is the territory of of greedy people or those with no moral compass. Here we agree, but generally when discussing crime in this context we are talking of murder or serious injury, usually drug related. The world is run by the rich and the best we can expect to do is limit their misdemeanours. If you preoperly read my post you would have seen I mentioned lack of moral compass, that's what you should look at when determining criminal activity. |
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on Dec 18, 2022 21:11:45 GMT
Here we agree, but generally when discussing crime in this context we are talking of murder or serious injury, usually drug related. The world is run by the rich and the best we can expect to do is limit their misdemeanours. If you properly read my post you would have seen I mentioned lack of moral compass, that's what you should look at when determining criminal activity. Yes, but I didn't give it the significance you did. How do you determine someone's moral compass and more importantly how do you instil one? |
|
|
|
Post by Orac on Dec 18, 2022 21:48:58 GMT
If you preoperly read my post you would have seen I mentioned lack of moral compass, that's what you should look at when determining criminal activity. Indeed. For instance Zany may be misguided but he has a moral compass. I very much doubt he would resort to crime even in very reduced circumstances. I think doing so would destroy his sense of who he is. |
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on Dec 18, 2022 22:10:48 GMT
If you preoperly read my post you would have seen I mentioned lack of moral compass, that's what you should look at when determining criminal activity. Indeed. For instance Zany may be misguided but he has a moral compass. I very much doubt he would resort to crime even in very reduced circumstances. I think doing so would destroy his sense of who he is. (So misguided  ) But yes I am honest to a high level, I believe it has lead to my success far more than lying or cheating could have. Yet here's the conundrum. My parents were awful. My mum was a sociopath who spent much of my childhood in and out of mental institutions and my father was a classic bully carrying out cruel acts for his own joy, I left home for the last time aged 17. So where did my moral compass come from? The floor is yours? |
|
|
|
Post by steppenwolf on Dec 19, 2022 7:28:48 GMT
Magrathea said "Given the information that crime and poverty are correlated, the notion that crime causes poverty, or the notion poverty causes crime, are both of equal explanatory validity - both hypothesis would explain the correlation. However, given just that information, there is no logical reason to select one over the other (or a multiplicity of alternatives)."
Exactly.
|
|
|
|
Post by steppenwolf on Dec 19, 2022 7:42:50 GMT
Zanygame said "But there is a causal link between poverty and theft. Poor people steal to get the things they cannot afford to buy and envy having. They also steal because they feel no link to the society they live in.
There are a heap of other factors but that does not make poverty just correlation."
As Magrathea says that's a perfectly reasonable hypothesis - just as the hypothesis that CO2 causes global warming is also reasonable. But that is NOT demonstrating a causal link. That's just a possible causal link (among many others). Just as with the CO2 warming theory you now have to show that that there is an ACTUAL causal link, rather than just a correlation caused by other factors - or by the fact that global warming itself causes a rise in CO2, just as crime leads to poverty.
So you need to prove the causal link, and that's never been done - in either example. It's simply your opinion that poverty causes crime and CO2 causes global warming. In science that isn't enough.
|
|
|
|
Post by oracle75 on Dec 19, 2022 11:46:50 GMT
If everyone stopped trying to impress everyone else, from collecting likes to being bought a beer, stopped being ignited by the press and self styled gurus on social media, and just got on with their own lives as they did back in the golden age, things might return to something closer to what we miss.
If the press stopped trying to make us angry, stopped printing half truths, stopped treating us like children and stopped trying to attract recruits for their opinions, we might stop fighting among ourselves.
As for the deplorable state of the country, getting rid of the Tories who haven't governed but merely partied with the press since 2016 would be a good start.
And it would be a good idea to stop thinking the UK is bombproof and start shoring up the foundations against hard times. We have become lazy, arrogant and complacent.
|
|
|
|
Post by Orac on Dec 19, 2022 11:48:07 GMT
(So misguided ) But yes I am honest to a high level, I believe it has lead to my success far more than lying or cheating could have. Yet here's the conundrum. My parents were awful. My mum was a sociopath who spent much of my childhood in and out of mental institutions and my father was a classic bully carrying out cruel acts for his own joy, I left home for the last time aged 17. So where did my moral compass come from? The floor is yours? My version is that you decided to not be the sort of person leaves a string of victims. This became part of your internal narrative and this probably started subtly when you were 7 - 17 and became solidified by real-world experiences in your twenties. However, the question in our conversation is why some people take a very different approach. I think most crimes are committed by people who made the opposite decision to yourself If poverty causes criminality, would you say the luxury and ease that you experienced causes people like yourself?  Do you see what I'm saying? If we examine ourselves, we can see that the notion that poverty causes criminality is actually a cheat - an excuse for criminality. Your intentions may be good, but by furthering the notion, you are giving people a reason not to make the decision you made. |
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on Dec 19, 2022 19:05:06 GMT
Zanygame said " But there is a causal link between poverty and theft. Poor people steal to get the things they cannot afford to buy and envy having. They also steal because they feel no link to the society they live in.
There are a heap of other factors but that does not make poverty just correlation." As Magrathea says that's a perfectly reasonable hypothesis - just as the hypothesis that CO2 causes global warming is also reasonable. But that is NOT demonstrating a causal link. That's just a possible causal link (among many others). Just as with the CO2 warming theory you now have to show that that there is an ACTUAL causal link, rather than just a correlation caused by other factors - or by the fact that global warming itself causes a rise in CO2, just as crime leads to poverty. So you need to prove the causal link, and that's never been done - in either example. It's simply your opinion that poverty causes crime and CO2 causes global warming. In science that isn't enough. No you don't need to prove a causal link. You need to provide reasonable evidence. Many people demand proof absolute or dismiss things they don't like. But that's not how it works, you cannot prove anything. Prove the earth goes round the sun? Well observation of it and other bodies evidences this, but you can't rule out some deity playing mind games with us. All science is based on evidence, not fact. So there is a great deal of evidence that Co2 causes global warming and a great deal of evidence that poverty causes crime. But either could turn out to be a trick by aliens playing mind games with us. So its NOT my opinion is the overwhelming evidence. |
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on Dec 19, 2022 19:30:22 GMT
(So misguided ) But yes I am honest to a high level, I believe it has lead to my success far more than lying or cheating could have. Yet here's the conundrum. My parents were awful. My mum was a sociopath who spent much of my childhood in and out of mental institutions and my father was a classic bully carrying out cruel acts for his own joy, I left home for the last time aged 17. So where did my moral compass come from? The floor is yours? Pretty good guess, yes I became determined not to be my parents or let anyone suffer what I did. The point being its life's experiences that set your global compass, had my personality been different (introvert rather than extrovert say) then my reaction to my childhood treatment might well have manifested differently. However, the question in our conversation is why some people take a very different approach. I think most crimes are committed by people who made the opposite decision to yourself Well nothings absolute and poverty doesn't always cause criminality, nor wealth generosity its just more common in those circumstances. I certainly wasn't always rich. When I left home I slept on a friends floor for a month, I had 4 jobs and lived in a very grotty bedsit for a couple of years. But again I was a fighter so I fought my way forward. A milder person might have suffered very differently. I have some evidence of this, my brother is a more gentle soul and I've had to care for him several times in his life, he's lived with us for 3 years on and off. Such was the damage my parents caused him and his confidence. I disagree, not everyone who's poor turns to crime, most don't, but you are much more likely to give in the the temptation if you have the personality and the poverty. I agree crime is a weakness, but it can still be influenced by life experience. If you are talking about trying to reduce crime for the sake of the victims, dealing with poverty would be a good way. (Of course, some people are just plain bad ) |
|
|
|
Post by steppenwolf on Dec 20, 2022 8:24:06 GMT
Zanygame said " But there is a causal link between poverty and theft. Poor people steal to get the things they cannot afford to buy and envy having. They also steal because they feel no link to the society they live in.
There are a heap of other factors but that does not make poverty just correlation." As Magrathea says that's a perfectly reasonable hypothesis - just as the hypothesis that CO2 causes global warming is also reasonable. But that is NOT demonstrating a causal link. That's just a possible causal link (among many others). Just as with the CO2 warming theory you now have to show that that there is an ACTUAL causal link, rather than just a correlation caused by other factors - or by the fact that global warming itself causes a rise in CO2, just as crime leads to poverty. So you need to prove the causal link, and that's never been done - in either example. It's simply your opinion that poverty causes crime and CO2 causes global warming. In science that isn't enough. No you don't need to prove a causal link. You need to provide reasonable evidence. Many people demand proof absolute or dismiss things they don't like. But that's not how it works, you cannot prove anything. Prove the earth goes round the sun? Well observation of it and other bodies evidences this, but you can't rule out some deity playing mind games with us. All science is based on evidence, not fact. So there is a great deal of evidence that Co2 causes global warming and a great deal of evidence that poverty causes crime. But either could turn out to be a trick by aliens playing mind games with us. So its NOT my opinion is the overwhelming evidence. You can't prove something is true - but you can prove it's not true. And there's plenty of evidence to prove that poverty doesn't cause crime. For example recessions don't cause a rise in crime, yet they do increase poverty. And there is far less poverty now than there was 50 years ago - yet crime is far higher now than it was. As for evidence that CO2 causes global warming there is unequivocal evidence that CO2 causes warming when all other factors are eliminated. John Tyndall showed this with a simple experiment using a box and a light source. But it's never been demonstrated in the Earth's system because there are so many other factors that work to prevent warming - it's called buffering. And the models that are built on the assumption that CO2 causes warming patently don't work. So that proves that CO2 doesn't cause warming in the Earth's system. |
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on Dec 20, 2022 19:00:13 GMT
No you don't need to prove a causal link. You need to provide reasonable evidence. Many people demand proof absolute or dismiss things they don't like. But that's not how it works, you cannot prove anything. Prove the earth goes round the sun? Well observation of it and other bodies evidences this, but you can't rule out some deity playing mind games with us. All science is based on evidence, not fact. So there is a great deal of evidence that Co2 causes global warming and a great deal of evidence that poverty causes crime. But either could turn out to be a trick by aliens playing mind games with us. So its NOT my opinion is the overwhelming evidence. You can't prove something is true - but you can prove it's not true. And there's plenty of evidence to prove that poverty doesn't cause crime. For example recessions don't cause a rise in crime, yet they do increase poverty. And there is far less poverty now than there was 50 years ago - yet crime is far higher now than it was. As for evidence that CO2 causes global warming there is unequivocal evidence that CO2 causes warming when all other factors are eliminated. John Tyndall showed this with a simple experiment using a box and a light source. But it's never been demonstrated in the Earth's system because there are so many other factors that work to prevent warming - it's called buffering. And the models that are built on the assumption that CO2 causes warming patently don't work. So that proves that CO2 doesn't cause warming in the Earth's system. You keep moving your goal posts and I can't be bothered to keep realigning up the ball. |
|
|
|
Post by johnofgwent on Dec 20, 2022 23:28:10 GMT
Red's on the money here. Did you know one reason train drivers want to strike is that their £50k+ job of pushing a handle in a nice warm cabin is too much now because they are being asked to close the doors as well as push the handle. Yep, for £50 grand a year it is not enough to close the doors. No. I’m not letting you get away with that. The issue is not having a second person on the train outside the drivers compartment. Given the likelihood of an incident killing the driver leaving no one else on the train versed in any sort of protocol for safe evacuation it’s not hard to see the real issue. Closing the doors is not the issue at all. I wrote the code to command them to check closure before powering the wheel bogies as part of the platform access controller departure protocol in 1994, if Network Rail / London Underground / whoever gave not implemented that, they’re to blame they signed Westinghouse Brake And Signal up to s contract to do that back in ‘91 or thereabouts. |
|
|
|
Post by Baron von Lotsov on Dec 20, 2022 23:40:12 GMT
Red's on the money here. Did you know one reason train drivers want to strike is that their £50k+ job of pushing a handle in a nice warm cabin is too much now because they are being asked to close the doors as well as push the handle. Yep, for £50 grand a year it is not enough to close the doors. No. I’m not letting you get away with that. The issue is not having a second person on the train outside the drivers compartment. Given the likelihood of an incident killing the driver leaving no one else on the train versed in any sort of protocol for safe evacuation it’s not hard to see the real issue. Closing the doors is not the issue at all. I wrote the code to command them to check closure before powering the wheel bogies as part of the platform access controller departure protocol in 1994, if Network Rail / London Underground / whoever gave not implemented that, they’re to blame they signed Westinghouse Brake And Signal up to s contract to do that back in ‘91 or thereabouts. There is a small Chinese car callee the funky cat, and for your £30 grand you get a little device that watches you. Should you die or fall to sleep at the wheel it will safely stop the car. If the Brits are too thick to figure out how to do this then you know who to call. There is some Chinese word apparently that when translated means "we will find a way". The Brits aught to learn the word as well. |
|
|
|
Post by johnofgwent on Dec 21, 2022 0:05:29 GMT
No. I’m not letting you get away with that. The issue is not having a second person on the train outside the drivers compartment. Given the likelihood of an incident killing the driver leaving no one else on the train versed in any sort of protocol for safe evacuation it’s not hard to see the real issue. Closing the doors is not the issue at all. I wrote the code to command them to check closure before powering the wheel bogies as part of the platform access controller departure protocol in 1994, if Network Rail / London Underground / whoever gave not implemented that, they’re to blame they signed Westinghouse Brake And Signal up to s contract to do that back in ‘91 or thereabouts. There is a small Chinese car callee the funky cat, and for your £30 grand you get a little device that watches you. Should you die or fall to sleep at the wheel it will safely stop the car. If the Brits are too thick to figure out how to do this then you know who to call. There is some Chinese word apparently that when translated means "we will find a way". The Brits aught to learn the word as well. I was referring to the sort of situation that happenned near Moorgate a good few years back. Incidentally that automated train operating system had a rather fun flaw that sent trains out from the sidings where they were not in a radio zone directly onto the main lines where they were without any regard for other traffic or signals. Just one of the several quite fatal flaws I was quite happy to take the large daily fee I was being paid to uncover. The fact the automated operation systems haven’t caused a thousand Ladbroke Grove style fatalities is entirely thanks to the team I was part of and was totally ignored by the developers. |
|
) But yes I am honest to a high level, I believe it has lead to my success far more than lying or cheating could have. 
