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Post by happyjack on Oct 1, 2024 17:04:28 GMT
No, I don’t have the specific evidence you ask for but, if not quite an expert, I have a good understanding of sign messaging principles and I know that adding superfluous zero value information to a sign message is detrimental to that message therefore, if 2nd language messaging is to be utilised, it has to bring more overall benefit than detriment - which Gaelic simply and spectacularly fails to do. prove it ? I see that you are falling back, yet again, on your desperate last line of defence “prove it” approach. I have already proven it sufficiently in my posts above. Whether you recognise that, however, is a moot point because you clearly have no awareness in this field. |
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Post by thomas on Oct 1, 2024 17:05:03 GMT
You are not keeping up. I have already given you the answer to that in my earlier posts you havent. hence my repeated question , and comparisons with other countries and multi lingual signs elsewhere. Does the Republic of Ireland have major issues with multi lingual roadsigns with their majority English speaking population ? Can happy tell us why scotland is somehow unique in being not suited to multi lingual signs? I mean , I keep reading bleating posts , but im no further forward in understanding your refusal to accept multi lingual roadsigns. I see no evidence presented , just the usual happy jack nonsensical rubbish about you brits being upset . |
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Post by thomas on Oct 1, 2024 17:06:05 GMT
I see that you are falling back, yet again, on your desperate last line of defence “prove it” approach. I have already proven it sufficiently in my posts above. Whether you recognise that, however, is a moot point because you clearly have no awareness in this field. we fall back to theses two words time and again because you constantly lie and make things up , then run way when asked to prove it. try and be a bit more honest , instead of making up problems about multi lingual roadsigns that dont exist elsewhere. |
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Post by happyjack on Oct 1, 2024 17:12:37 GMT
No I didn’t make up problems with multi lingual signs that don’t exist. I am simply explaining a basic principle of best practice sign messaging and how the use of Gaelic on public information and wayfinding type signs and on public service provider vehicle livery in Scotland as a 2nd language option to the lead language of English delivers zero benefit to users and results in a degree of detriment to the effectiveness of the sign messaging. You can brush that aside in your ignorance if you choose. We have seen plenty of that from you in the past whenever something doesn’t suit your argument and you don’t know what you are talking about - but what I say is based upon knowledge not ignorance and is valid no matter what you choose to think.
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Post by happyjack on Oct 1, 2024 17:21:14 GMT
You are not keeping up. I have already given you the answer to that in my earlier posts you havent. hence my repeated question , and comparisons with other countries and multi lingual signs elsewhere. Does the Republic of Ireland have major issues with multi lingual roadsigns with their majority English speaking population ? Can happy tell us why scotland is somehow unique in being not suited to multi lingual signs? I mean , I keep reading bleating posts , but im no further forward in understanding your refusal to accept multi lingual roadsigns. I see no evidence presented , just the usual happy jack nonsensical rubbish about you brits being upset . You are simply not paying attention - either that or you are intentionally ignoring what I have repeatedly told you because it doesn’t suit your posturing. I don’t refuse to accept multi -lingual signs and have not said anything to the contrary so please stop making things up. I have only said that multi- lingual signs should deliver more benefit than detriment, and that Gaelic as a 2nd language where the lead language is English, on signs such as these in Scotland, spectacularly fails to achieve this outcome because it delivers zero benefit, only detriment. |
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Post by happyjack on Oct 1, 2024 18:25:00 GMT
I am not making a silly linguistic argument. I am pointing out I am just pointing out that doing as the Scottish Government has done adds nothing of value to the core function of these signs and that the Scottish government does so to the detriment of how the signs perform and therefore of how they benefit users same as the uk government with passports. you know , the point you keep avoiding. I answered that point the first time you raised your first version of this question with me - and the second time when you raised your second version of this question too. Why do you keep asking the same thing in slightly different ways and each time say that I keep avoiding it when I have answered it at least twice and possibly more? It is you who is doing all of the avoiding here. |
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Post by happyjack on Oct 1, 2024 18:58:29 GMT
do you have evidence that people in scotland dont want Gaelic or Scots roadsigns? No, I don’t have evidence. nor have I claimed that the Scottish people want or don’t want this so why are you asking this question?
I dont. So why did you say that they do? |
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Post by happyjack on Oct 1, 2024 19:13:08 GMT
Or this … “ There is not a single person in Scotland who can only read and understand place names if they are written in Gaelic, nor is there a single person in Scotland who can read and understand place names written in Gaelic but cannot also read and understand place names written in English. I answered this earlier. Can you not read? Where did you do that? |
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Post by happyjack on Oct 1, 2024 20:23:24 GMT
That’s all pretty clear in what I said above so I suggest that you read it again if you didn’t grasp that. No one in Glasgow , and very few in scotland call our main city Glasgow. it’s variously called glaschu in Gaelic , glesga in the local Scots , and glasgae on the east coast Scots ? What utter nonsense. Almost everyone I know calls Glasgow by its proper name, including those in Glasgow and those on the east coast. Sure, I hear “ glesga” from time to time, but that always jars when I do, so seldom do I hear it. As for Glaschu, there are so few Gaelic speakers, and most of them speak English most of the time, that it is hardly worth mentioning it here. |
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Post by thomas on Oct 2, 2024 7:14:15 GMT
but what I say is based upon knowledge not ignorance and is valid no matter what you choose to think. post the evidence then? Which font of knowledge is this , that the brit nats in scotland know , but no other nation worldwide that uses multilingual signs know? I mean you have literally loads of countries to choose from , yet not one piece of evidence is forthcoming , just perpetual brit nat whines. |
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Post by thomas on Oct 2, 2024 7:15:48 GMT
same as the uk government with passports. you know , the point you keep avoiding. I answered that point the first time you raised your first version of this question with me - and the second time when you raised your second version of this question too. Why do you keep asking the same thing in slightly different ways and each time say that I keep avoiding it when I have answered it at least twice and possibly more? It is you who is doing all of the avoiding here. your objections to multi lingual signs have been duly noted , and utterly dismissed as of no consequence. You keep whining , and both the Scottish and uk governments , along with many other governments worldwide , will carry on with multi lingual signage. |
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Post by thomas on Oct 2, 2024 7:16:27 GMT
No one in Glasgow , and very few in scotland call our main city Glasgow. it’s variously called glaschu in Gaelic , glesga in the local Scots , and glasgae on the east coast Scots ? What utter nonsense. Almost everyone I know calls Glasgow by its proper name, including those in Glasgow and those on the east coast. Sure, I hear “ glesga” from time to time, but that always jars when I do, so seldom do I hear it. prove it? |
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Post by thomas on Oct 2, 2024 7:19:42 GMT
while happy jack continues to flog the dead horse , I see Marr quickly backed down and apologised for his ignorance. While I dont like the man , or his ilk , its nice to see some brit nats , unlike others have a spine...
However, the truly chilling thing is that upon making a public display of his ignorance and his contempt for a core piece of Scottish culture and an emblem of Scottish national identity, Marr was applauded by the Labour party delegates in attendance. Contempt for Scottish culture and nurturing of the Cringe is every bit as much a part of the DNA of the Labour party as it is for the Conservatives and the frothing Scottish supporters of the openly English nationalist Reform UK.
What is truly ridiculous and offensive is that public figures like Marr can receive attention and applause for their lack of knowledge of basic information about a key facet of Scottish culture which in any other nation would be taught in primary schools. Marr has now accepted that he was wrong and posted on Twitter: “Right. On the Gaelic business. Sometimes when good friends take you kindly to one side and explain patiently why you are completely wrong, you have to accept that you are completely wrong. I have long thought that what the great Scottish medieval poets called ‘inglis’ and the 20th century ones Lallans, is being pushed aside in modern memory and use… But I got overexcited and was wrong. Whatever is the Gaelic for sorry, that…”
Marr has at least admitted he was wrong on Gaelic, but it beggars belief that his objection to a Gaelic language sign in Haymarket train station was because he thought there ought to have been a sign in Scots instead of or as well as the Gaelic one. The very same people who object to Gaelic signage would just as vociferously object to signage in Scots, and in that regard it’s telling that Marr could not bring himself to call Scots, Scots
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Post by happyjack on Oct 2, 2024 9:02:50 GMT
but what I say is based upon knowledge not ignorance and is valid no matter what you choose to think. post the evidence then? Which font of knowledge is this , that the brit nats in scotland know , but no other nation worldwide that uses multilingual signs know? I mean you have literally loads of countries to choose from , yet not one piece of evidence is forthcoming , just perpetual brit nat whines. The evidence has already been posted. It is in the knowledge that I have imparted to you about a basic principle of sign messaging. As people are the same everywhere then this principle applies everywhere (not just Scotland) and it applies to all types of sign messaging, not just multi-lingual signs. The application of this principle in this case (i.e. the use of Gaelic on public information and wayfinding type signs and on public service provider vehicle livery in Scotland as a 2nd language option to the lead language of English) delivers zero benefit to users (because there is not a single potential user who can read and understand Gaelic who cannot read and understand English) and results in a degree of detriment to the effectiveness of the sign messaging (because adding more information than is necessary to any sign face diminishes the potential for that sign face to communicate its message as effectively as it otherwise would). Keeping a message as straightforward and as uncluttered as possible is not just a basic principle of sign messaging but a basic principle of human communications generally so there is nothing in the least bit controversial or debatable about this point. That’s how it is and how it will continue to be no matter how hard you try not to accept it. And where have I been whining and where is your evidence that I am a BritNat? Just to be clear, once again, I do not believe that the UK is a single nation ( which is the fundamental position of British Nationalism) nor do I have any philosophically based belief that Scotland must remain part of the UK or that the UK must be preserved. If you can just credibly demonstrate to me that Scotland and its people would be economically better off rather than financially disadvantaged by going it alone then I will be all for leaving the UK. I have explained that many times on here so either you understand that that means I am not a BritNat, in which case you are ignoring this for whatever twisted reason it is that motivates you to do so, or you don’t understand what a BritNat is - or both. Nor have I been whining, just making an informed point about sign messaging in a measured way - so cease with the false accusations and Neddy behaviour. |
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Post by happyjack on Oct 2, 2024 9:13:12 GMT
What utter nonsense. Almost everyone I know calls Glasgow by its proper name, including those in Glasgow and those on the east coast. Sure, I hear “ glesga” from time to time, but that always jars when I do, so seldom do I hear it. prove it? Are you seriously asking me to prove that “ Almost everyone I know calls Glasgow by its proper name, including those in Glasgow and those on the east coast” and that “ I hear ‘glesga’ from time to time, but that always jars when I do, so seldom do I hear it” ? Why don’t you instead try to prove your absurd pronouncement that “ No one in Glasgow , and very few in scotland call our main city Glasgow.” What a self-deluding plonker you are to make such an observably absurd claim yet you presumably expect to be taken seriously. |
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