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Post by thomas on Oct 1, 2024 15:40:23 GMT
what principles are that then ? Are you implying the Scottish hare not genetically programmed to read multiple language roadsigns , or rail signs , but many other nationalities in other countries can? However can we be trusted to use our passports correctly with all those funny languages printed on them. Can happy jack explain this linguistic conundrum to us mere mortals? I have already told you what principles and there is no linguistic conundrum to explain. In my experience of multi - language signage, the inclusion of 2nd and subsequent languages, whilst crowding the message and therefore diminishing the quality of the sign message for the lead language reader, delivers a counter benefit of presenting information to users who cannot read and understand the message in the lead language but can read and understand either the 2nd or one of the subsequent languages. Gaelic below English on our signs does not achieve that and is therefore superfluous and detrimental. That’s why I suggested Polish etc etc if we must have a 2nd language on our signs as this would deliver benefit to some users. how do the irish , the French , the Belgians , Italians Indians or Canadians possibly cope with bi or multi lingual roadsigns? What is it about the Gaelic language in the country of scotland on bi lingual Scottish roadsigns that we Scots are not genetically programmed to cope with , that all these nations around the world are? Can you explain it to us?
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Post by thomas on Oct 1, 2024 15:44:41 GMT
you havent corrected anything. Are you denying there was once an English passport? Once you answer that sufficiently ,perhaps we can get back to the nub of your hysterical nonsensical argument .......such as it is. Why is it ok to print the Gaelic and welsh language on British passports , but not on British roadsigns? over to you. Whether there was once an English passport is neither here nor there. I have zero interest in this matter but I assume that there once was such a thing for the privileged few prior to 1707 when England ceased to exist as a country but so what? What matters is now and that means we have British passports, as I pointed out to you above. You can run away if you like , but im simply asking what you think you corrected in my earlier post .? As ever , it appears to be a figment of that over active imagination of yours that comes into play on these politics boards. This silly history lesson is. irrelevant to my earlier point , that both the English , then later British passports were multi lingual , and often those languages served no useful purpose outside of being heritage languages in both the states mentioned .
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Post by happyjack on Oct 1, 2024 15:45:32 GMT
The answer to that is obvious from my posts above. Have you actually read them or do you just lack the ability to understand them and to apply the points that I have made to the question you ask?
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Post by thomas on Oct 1, 2024 15:49:27 GMT
The answer to that is obvious from my posts above. Have you actually read them or do you just lack the ability to understand them and to apply the points that I have made to the question you ask? ah back to claiming an explanation , that doesn't wash , and you havent given , in what passes for earlier posts. Do the Belgians and irish for example have major issues with bi lingual roadsigns that perhaps causes crashes , that we Scots best avoid ? Or are you inventing things once again you cant back up ? What is it in your feverish insular British nationalist imagination that makes scotland uniquely unsuited to multi lingual signs that are taken for the norm in countries worldwide? can you explain it to us mere mortals happy?
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Post by happyjack on Oct 1, 2024 15:56:35 GMT
“ In my experience of multi - language signage, the inclusion of 2nd and subsequent languages, whilst crowding the message and therefore diminishing the quality of the sign message for the lead language reader, delivers a counter benefit of presenting information to users who cannot read and understand the message in the lead language but can read and understand either the 2nd or one of the subsequent languages. Gaelic below English on our signs does not achieve that and is therefore superfluous and detrimental “
Didn’t you read this and can’t you answer your question by just reading this and joining a few very obvious and straightforward dots?
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Post by happyjack on Oct 1, 2024 15:58:19 GMT
Or this … “ There is not a single person in Scotland who can only read and understand place names if they are written in Gaelic, nor is there a single person in Scotland who can read and understand place names written in Gaelic but cannot also read and understand place names written in English. I think that we can be pretty confident that the same applies to visitors to Scotland. That being the case, how is important information better conveyed by adding Gaelic versions of place names alongside English place names on rail and road signs (or by adding Gaelic versions of public service providers on police, ambulance and fire service vehicle livery alongside their English equivalents for that matter) ? Rather than add anything in terms of key understanding to the user, the addition of Gaelic to such signs overloads them with superfluous zero value information, making them unnecessarily more confusing than they need to be and thereby rendering them less effective in their primary objective of communicating key information to users. If we really want to improve user benefit and to do some good by adding a second language place name and service provider option to such signage and vehicle livery then let it be a language that a meaningful amount of non-English reading residents of, or visitors to, Scotland are familiar with “ ?
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Post by thomas on Oct 1, 2024 15:59:26 GMT
“ In my experience of multi - language signage, the inclusion of 2nd and subsequent languages, whilst crowding the message and therefore diminishing the quality of the sign message for the lead language reader, delivers a counter benefit of presenting information to users who cannot read and understand the message in the lead language but can read and understand either the 2nd or one of the subsequent languages. Gaelic below English on our signs does not achieve that and is therefore superfluous and detrimental “ Didn’t you read this and can’t you answer your question by just reading this and joining a few very obvious and straightforward dots? aye , ive read it numerous times, while you appear to ignore my retort. Do you have evidence from other nations of the apparent problems multi lingual road or rail signs cause to those who read them? can you answer the question happy instead of screaming over and over that your wee British eyes hurt when you read gaidhlig?
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Post by thomas on Oct 1, 2024 16:03:06 GMT
Or this … “ There is not a single person in Scotland who can only read and understand place names if they are written in Gaelic, nor is there a single person in Scotland who can read and understand place names written in Gaelic but cannot also read and understand place names written in English. I answered this earlier. Can you not read? I can read and understand the name Glasgow , on road signs, but why , as a native Glaswegian , should roadsigns in my city be written in a foreign language in a pronounciation the majority do not use? I can read the French word passport , and the name United Kingdom on my passport , but why do the British government therefore think it of use to put both the Gaelic and Welsh versions of United Kingdom of our passports , but the Scots government cant also do the same for road and rail signs? Can you answer the question ?
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Post by happyjack on Oct 1, 2024 16:25:40 GMT
The relevant question is not whether Scotland is less suited to multi-lingual signs than the other places you mention. Rather, it is whether we should live with the detriment of multi lingual signs in order that we can enjoy the benefits that multi-lingual signs can bring. If the 2nd language under consideration is Gaelic then that is a no brainer because, for the reasons I have provided you with a couple of times now, Gaelic brings no benefit to road and rail sign users. Another language ( such as Polish) would bring some user benefit to counteract the detriment because there are people who live or visit Scotland who cannot read English but can read Polish.
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Post by happyjack on Oct 1, 2024 16:44:13 GMT
Or this … “ There is not a single person in Scotland who can only read and understand place names if they are written in Gaelic, nor is there a single person in Scotland who can read and understand place names written in Gaelic but cannot also read and understand place names written in English. I answered this earlier. Can you not read? I can read and understand the name Glasgow , on road signs, but why , as a native Glaswegian , should roadsigns in my city be written in a foreign language in a pronounciation the majority do not use? I can read the French word passport , and the name United Kingdom on my passport , but why do the British government therefore think it of use to put both the Gaelic and Welsh versions of United Kingdom of our passports , but the Scots government cant also do the same for road and rail signs? Can you answer the question ? I can read as you clearly already know, so cease with the Neddy corner boy behaviour please.if you answered it earlier then I have either not read your post or decided that it doesn’t merit a response. Road signs don’t have to be in a foreign language if those providing the signage don’t want to put a foreign language on those signs. The only valid reason for doing so is if it adds value to the messaging for some sign users, more value than the detriment incurred through loading more information onto the sign would bring for other users. How do you know that the British Government think it of use to add Gaelic text to our passports? If Gaelic is included in our passports then, just like our rail and road signs, it provides zero improved clarity to the user or to those viewing our passports when they are presented with them. This is just unnecessary clutter which, I imagine, was only added to placate vacuous whingeing from some of our fellow Scots at some stage or another.
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Post by happyjack on Oct 1, 2024 16:49:38 GMT
“ In my experience of multi - language signage, the inclusion of 2nd and subsequent languages, whilst crowding the message and therefore diminishing the quality of the sign message for the lead language reader, delivers a counter benefit of presenting information to users who cannot read and understand the message in the lead language but can read and understand either the 2nd or one of the subsequent languages. Gaelic below English on our signs does not achieve that and is therefore superfluous and detrimental “ Didn’t you read this and can’t you answer your question by just reading this and joining a few very obvious and straightforward dots? aye , ive read it numerous times, while you appear to ignore my retort. Do you have evidence from other nations of the apparent problems multi lingual road or rail signs cause to those who read them? can you answer the question happy instead of screaming over and over that your wee British eyes hurt when you read gaidhlig? Where have I said that my wee British eyes hurt when I read Gaelic? No, I don’t have the specific evidence you ask for but, if not quite an expert, I have a good understanding of sign messaging principles and I know that adding superfluous zero value information to a sign message is detrimental to that message. Therefore, if 2nd language messaging is to be utilised, it has to bring more overall benefit than detriment - which Gaelic simply and spectacularly fails to do because it delivers no benefit to users, only detriment.
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Post by thomas on Oct 1, 2024 16:55:51 GMT
I answered this earlier. Can you not read? I can read and understand the name Glasgow , on road signs, but why , as a native Glaswegian , should roadsigns in my city be written in a foreign language in a pronounciation the majority do not use? I can read the French word passport , and the name United Kingdom on my passport , but why do the British government therefore think it of use to put both the Gaelic and Welsh versions of United Kingdom of our passports , but the Scots government cant also do the same for road and rail signs? Can you answer the question ? I can read as you clearly already know, so cease with the Neddy corner boy behaviour please.if you answered it earlier then I have either not read your post or decided that it doesn’t merit a response. Road signs don’t have to be in a foreign language if those providing the signage don’t want to put a foreign language on those signs. The only valid reason for doing so is if it adds value to the messaging for some sign users, more value than the detriment incurred through loading more information onto the sign would bring for other users. do you have evidence that people in scotland dont want Gaelic or Scots roadsigns? I dont. Do you have evidence they dont? The point once again is why you havent once moaned about the British doing to 51 million passports that the scot gov or welsh ( or many many other countries have done) to roadsigns. Have you found evidence of roadsigns difficulties in countries where multi lingual signs are used ? or are you going to run away and ignore the point after taking great pains to repeat it time and again.
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Post by thomas on Oct 1, 2024 16:56:23 GMT
aye , ive read it numerous times, while you appear to ignore my retort. Do you have evidence from other nations of the apparent problems multi lingual road or rail signs cause to those who read them? can you answer the question happy instead of screaming over and over that your wee British eyes hurt when you read gaidhlig? No, I don’t have the specific evidence you ask for but, if not quite an expert, I have a good understanding of sign messaging principles and I know that adding superfluous zero value information to a sign message is detrimental to that message therefore, if 2nd language messaging is to be utilised, it has to bring more overall benefit than detriment - which Gaelic simply and spectacularly fails to do. prove it ?
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Post by thomas on Oct 1, 2024 16:58:12 GMT
The relevant question is not whether Scotland is less suited to multi-lingual signs than the other places you mention. Rather, it is whether we should live with the detriment of multi lingual signs in order that we can enjoy the benefits that multi-lingual can bring. Why shoudnt we?
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Post by happyjack on Oct 1, 2024 17:00:52 GMT
You are not keeping up. I have already given you the answer to that in my earlier posts
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