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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Jul 8, 2024 10:23:45 GMT
You seem to have a different interpretation of the word "majority" to me. Majority by definition should mean more than half, but whatever way you split the vote share Labour did not do that. Labour won the election because out of the 2 potential prime ministers, people favoured Starmer over Sunak. Andrew, first-past-the-post is a voting system where voters cast a vote for a single candidate, and the candidate with the most votes wins the election. Unlike PR, FPTP is not complicated. More info here - linkPR is not complicated: Parliament reflects how the electorate actually voted.
FPTP is designed to deliver a "Decisive" vote pretty much regardless of how the electorate voted.
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Post by Red Rackham on Jul 8, 2024 10:45:00 GMT
Andrew, first-past-the-post is a voting system where voters cast a vote for a single candidate, and the candidate with the most votes wins the election. Unlike PR, FPTP is not complicated. More info here - linkPR is not complicated: Parliament reflects how the electorate actually voted.
FPTP is designed to deliver a "Decisive" vote pretty much regardless of how the electorate voted.
I agree on the face of it PR is not complicated for the voter, I would however suggest that most voters in this country probably don't fully understand PR. But PR can deliver complicated consequences not least of all an increased likelihood of multiple party coalition governments who struggle get business done, and the inability for the electorate to remove a coalition party from power. Obviously smaller parties, Reform, LibDems, Greens, Monster Raving Loonies etc, say FPTP puts them at a disadvantage, which of course it does because fewar people vote for them. Who knew? PR would end majority rule, end strong majority governments, and end democracy. PR is a bad idea. |
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Post by Vinny on Jul 8, 2024 10:55:25 GMT
we dont have 20 independents, we have 6, and 4 of them were the pro gaza candidates galloway, and no one else from his party, got in. and galloway wasnt an independent to say PR would create a muslim controlled parliament is a fantasy Thankfully Galloway actually lost his seat. |
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Post by sheepy on Jul 8, 2024 10:58:17 GMT
I am starting to like it all the more when I see the usual suspects for the one party system having a meltdown, I admit I would much prefer direct democracy but this might be a baby step towards it.
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Jul 8, 2024 11:03:49 GMT
I agree on the face of it PR is not complicated for the voter, I would however suggest that most voters in this country probably don't fully understand PR. But PR can deliver complicated consequences not least of all an increased likelihood of multiple party coalition governments who struggle get business done... LOL! They struggle to get business done under FPTP. PR would end majority rule... We'd need to have had it in order to end it. ...end strong majority governments Again, we'd need to have had it in order to end it. Again, we'd need to have had it in order to end it. Nope, a system that disenfranchises 60-80% of the electorate is a bad idea. |
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Post by johnofgwent on Jul 8, 2024 11:08:13 GMT
I find it astonishing that the Right of British politics has generally always been opposed to proportional representation, but then suddenly they propose a move in favour of PR. Sectarian politics has been a part of British politics for a very long time, Republicans versus Unionists, Nationalists versus Unionists, so a Muslim dimension with regards to Gaza is simply something new, and to be expected. And where, pray, do you obtain this belief from Having been rather more involved in ‘the Right of British Politics’ than i suspect you ever have (i think my first experience of any politics was around 1974 when i got my first ever payslip with tax deductions on it) my experience suggests the exact opposite. Unless you’re adding the CINOs as Right wing of course |
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Post by johnofgwent on Jul 8, 2024 11:12:30 GMT
Under a simple PR system, the 2024 General Election would have resulted in a House Of Commons consisting of LABOUR 221 seats CONSERVATIVE 156 REFORM 91 LIB DEM 78 SNP 16 GREEN 39 OTHERS 49 No party with overall majority - even a LAB / LIB DEM coalition would not make a majority, and probably the outcome of last weeks election under a simple PR vote would be a Rainbow Centre Left coalition of Labour, Lib Dems and Green. The elephant in the room with your fantasy forecast being of course that if last weeks election HAD been done under PR then rather more than the miserably low number that bothered to vote under FPTP because they knew there was no point and i rather suspect we would have seen Sunak more than happy to approach Farage’s lot AND the lib dems as Cameron did before. |
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Post by andrewbrown on Jul 8, 2024 12:07:52 GMT
You seem to have a different interpretation of the word "majority" to me. Majority by definition should mean more than half, but whatever way you split the vote share Labour did not do that. Labour won the election because out of the 2 potential prime ministers, people favoured Starmer over Sunak. Andrew, first-past-the-post is a voting system where voters cast a vote for a single candidate, and the candidate with the most votes wins the election. Unlike PR, FPTP is not complicated. More info here - linkAh, OK. You meant majority of seats. I thought you were talking about majority of the electorate. |
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Post by johnofgwent on Jul 8, 2024 12:15:24 GMT
we dont have 20 independents, we have 6, and 4 of them were the pro gaza candidates galloway, and no one else from his party, got in. and galloway wasnt an independent to say PR would create a muslim controlled parliament is a fantasy Thankfully Galloway actually lost his seat. By about a thousand votes, in a constituency that normally has a 15k labour majority, and only after a boundary change which did who knows what |
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Post by andrewbrown on Jul 8, 2024 12:42:21 GMT
Under a simple PR system, the 2024 General Election would have resulted in a House Of Commons consisting of LABOUR 221 seats CONSERVATIVE 156 REFORM 91 LIB DEM 78 SNP 16 GREEN 39 OTHERS 49 No party with overall majority - even a LAB / LIB DEM coalition would not make a majority, and probably the outcome of last weeks election under a simple PR vote would be a Rainbow Centre Left coalition of Labour, Lib Dems and Green. The elephant in the room with your fantasy forecast being of course that if last weeks election HAD been done under PR then rather more than the miserably low number that bothered to vote under FPTP because they knew there was no point and i rather suspect we would have seen Sunak more than happy to approach Farage’s lot AND the lib dems as Cameron did before. And to add to that, people would have voted differently too. There was a lot of tactical voting, particularly between Labour, LibDem and Green voters. I voted Labour, as I live in a Labour/ Tory shootout constituency, but under PR, I probably would have voted LibDem, or maybe Green. |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Jul 8, 2024 13:03:22 GMT
The elephant in the room with your fantasy forecast being of course that if last weeks election HAD been done under PR then rather more than the miserably low number that bothered to vote under FPTP because they knew there was no point and i rather suspect we would have seen Sunak more than happy to approach Farage’s lot AND the lib dems as Cameron did before. And to add to that, people would have voted differently too. There was a lot of tactical voting, particularly between Labour, LibDem and Green voters. I voted Labour, as I live in a Labour/ Tory shootout constituency, but under PR, I probably would have voted LibDem, or maybe Green. Totally agree. I wanted to vote Reform but around here it's always a straight shoot out between Torys and LibDems and our LibDem candidate is a total arse.
So I voted Tory to keep him out (which failed, but there you go).
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Post by johnofgwent on Jul 8, 2024 14:16:58 GMT
The elephant in the room with your fantasy forecast being of course that if last weeks election HAD been done under PR then rather more than the miserably low number that bothered to vote under FPTP because they knew there was no point and i rather suspect we would have seen Sunak more than happy to approach Farage’s lot AND the lib dems as Cameron did before. And to add to that, people would have voted differently too. There was a lot of tactical voting, particularly between Labour, LibDem and Green voters. I voted Labour, as I live in a Labour/ Tory shootout constituency, but under PR, I probably would have voted LibDem, or maybe Green. ah yes, i’d overlooked that aspect. In a system where every voter’s vote has equal weight, part of the ‘tactical voting’ argument vanishes. Having said that, if you were a long standing supporter of party a you might still choose to vote for party b as a way of denying party c a sest at the cabinet. But that is starting to sould a bit of overkill |
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