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Post by Orac on Jul 10, 2024 11:52:22 GMT
The mechanism is random, but the result has a pattern because only things with patterns 'work'. The patterns are real. It's like rolling ten dice, but keeping the dice that show sixes and re-rolling the rest. In the end all ten dice show sixes Not necessarily. With enough random events anything will happen , including patterns that look like designs to humans who can only comprehend patterns. Reality could be infinite universes producing infinite random events . I was talking about the evolutionary concept of selection. The patterns are not imagined, they persist because they 'work' |
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Post by Bentley on Jul 10, 2024 11:58:18 GMT
Not necessarily. With enough random events anything will happen , including patterns that look like designs to humans who can only comprehend patterns. Reality could be infinite universes producing infinite random events . I was talking about the evolutionary concept of selection. The patterns are not imagined, they persist because they 'work' Selection is the product of random events . They don’t ‘ work’ unless there they were pre planned . They just happen . You see a system because you need to ,not because there is one . |
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Post by johnofgwent on Jul 10, 2024 12:07:10 GMT
Thats interesting Steppenwolf, are you saying that mixing up the gene pool, persons of different ethnic backgrounds reproducing, is a bad thing.? My understanding is that the opposite is true, that interbreeding produces maladaption, serius mental and physical illness. Like in the Asian community when cousin marries cousin. Discussion of this kind is not forbidden, that any knowledge must be welcome. In my career i have had experience of Huntingdoms Chorea, a truly horrific genetic illness, and in its treatment reproduction of affected individuals is not forbidden but seriously disapproved of. There is that game show host he of lets say, a smaller build, married a woman who had a similar genetic disorder and they produced children who were also dwarfs. Those children throughout their lives would suffer physically as well as emotionally, but that did not stop the parents condemning them to a hard life. Eugenics is practiced in Britain, but not in the Nazi way. Pregnancies who show genetic abnormalities, are advised to be aborted. In the not so distant past there were hospitals full of people with physical and mental handicaps of the extreme sort, looking after them was difficult, and they suffered daily, horribly. The cost of running these places was extreme. They dont exist today. It ius good to halt a genetic lineage that contains a serious genetic abnormality, Huntingdons chorea is brutal, death comes slowly, it is better not to suffer that. Ok lab coat and biochem degree time In the real world, the jungle where nothing lives to old age beyond the point the teeth don’t work, cross breeding and distribution of a mutated gene giving an individual a somewhat different genetic makeup from either parent gives the individual a chance to exploit a different gene pool IF the variation doesn’t kill them and IF whatever change gives them a survival advantage and IF the change either impresses, or doesn’t repulse, the alpha breeding male or femsle, to the extent you get tbe chance to pass on the gene changes AND they get successfully transferred AND don’t cause a miscarriage AND dont screw with the operation of whatever others the result of the aforementioned shagging carries, THEN the animal advances I hope you can see the large number of IF statements Homo Sapiens employs a whole load of Shyte that utterly interferes |
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Post by Bentley on Jul 10, 2024 12:19:17 GMT
If humans find that humans cannot live ( for long ) on other planets then human hybrids may be produced , bred or constructed .
We might consider that evolution .
We might consider AI killing off humans and a new silicone life form emerging ( yes I know it’s a bit simplistic ) as evolution.
You might consider uploading your ‘ consciousness’ into a mainframe or cloud evolution.
I’ll of these things have been discussed and still are .
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Post by Orac on Jul 10, 2024 13:09:52 GMT
I was talking about the evolutionary concept of selection. The patterns are not imagined, they persist because they 'work' Selection is the product of random events . They don’t ‘ work’ unless there they were pre planned . Some of them work and some of them don't. The ones that don't work die out and the ones that work persist |
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Post by sandypine on Jul 10, 2024 13:50:56 GMT
No one discounts 'beyond' but what we do is observe and pontificate as regards what we can deduce from that. You keep saying a design needs to be constructed by something and then agree it is possible they construct themselves which is exactly what natural selection does. The natural forces working on the natural world have created patterns that we regard as life and which can replicate itself to preserve mostly the pattern so created and in addition to help change it to better survive in the changing natural world. It is not some form of conscious process it is actions that occur naturally from natural forces and result, in the current end. The concept that self regulating designs, systems and natural forces sprang out of nothing is merely intellectual laziness / restriction. This is no better than saying ‘ Mother Nature ‘ does it all. Which is exactly what 'Mother Nature' does. Nothing comes from nothing what we have is life arising from natural forces and natural events. There is nothing magical or mystical about it. Not quite sure if the concept is self regulating designs. They are self repeating designs that may or may not work within the environment within which they arise and/or find themselves. Self regulating implies that they have the ability to change at will but with natural selection that is not the case. Variations of all designs arise through natural forces and imperfect repetition and the variations that work best, on average, survive. |
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Post by Bentley on Jul 10, 2024 14:01:44 GMT
The concept that self regulating designs, systems and natural forces sprang out of nothing is merely intellectual laziness / restriction. This is no better than saying ‘ Mother Nature ‘ does it all. Which is exactly what 'Mother Nature' does. Nothing comes from nothing what we have is life arising from natural forces and natural events. There is nothing magical or mystical about it. Not quite sure if the concept is self regulating designs. They are self repeating designs that may or may not work within the environment within which they arise and/or find themselves. Self regulating implies that they have the ability to change at will but with natural selection that is not the case. Variations of all designs arise through natural forces and imperfect repetition and the variations that work best, on average, survive. Mother Nature , natural forces ? There is everything magical and mystical about it . It’s Santa Claus for children who have no idea how the presents got there. Goddidit? No it was Mother Nature ! Natural selection isn’t self regulating it’s a number of random events that produce patterns when one searches for patterns . |
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Post by Bentley on Jul 10, 2024 14:03:15 GMT
Selection is the product of random events . They don’t ‘ work’ unless there they were pre planned . Some of them work and some of them don't. The ones that don't work die out and the ones that work persist Yup random events that produce patterns when you all you can comprehend are patterns . |
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Post by sandypine on Jul 10, 2024 14:07:43 GMT
Which is exactly what 'Mother Nature' does. Nothing comes from nothing what we have is life arising from natural forces and natural events. There is nothing magical or mystical about it. Not quite sure if the concept is self regulating designs. They are self repeating designs that may or may not work within the environment within which they arise and/or find themselves. Self regulating implies that they have the ability to change at will but with natural selection that is not the case. Variations of all designs arise through natural forces and imperfect repetition and the variations that work best, on average, survive. Mother Nature , natural forces ? There is everything magical and mystical about it . Natural selection isn’t self regulating it’s a number of random events that produce patterns when one searches for patterns . If random events produce patterns then it is quite surprising that we can see very similar patterns in existence millions of years ago to that in existence today. If all events are random then patterns that arise will soon dissipate and be lost to the next random pattern that arises but that is not the case once DNA arose that pattern persisted despite the randomness of events. |
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Post by Bentley on Jul 10, 2024 14:50:49 GMT
Mother Nature , natural forces ? There is everything magical and mystical about it . Natural selection isn’t self regulating it’s a number of random events that produce patterns when one searches for patterns . If random events produce patterns then it is quite surprising that we can see very similar patterns in existence millions of years ago to that in existence today. If all events are random then patterns that arise will soon dissipate and be lost to the next random pattern that arises but that is not the case once DNA arose that pattern persisted despite the randomness of events. With infinite universes and infinite numbers of random events , highly complex patterns can occur. Hence the infinite monkey theorem . All you need are two factors . Infinite and random . Belief in Mother Nature , natural forces , self regulated systems …is just Pantheism or deism . No better than believing in God, wood nymphs or tooth fairies . |
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Post by sandypine on Jul 10, 2024 15:21:55 GMT
If random events produce patterns then it is quite surprising that we can see very similar patterns in existence millions of years ago to that in existence today. If all events are random then patterns that arise will soon dissipate and be lost to the next random pattern that arises but that is not the case once DNA arose that pattern persisted despite the randomness of events. With infinite universes and infinite numbers of random events , highly complex patterns can occur. Hence the infinite monkey theorem . All you need are two factors . Infinite and random . Belief in Mother Nature , natural forces , self regulated systems …is just Pantheism or deism . No better than believing in God, wood nymphs or tooth fairies . Mother Nature is an overarching name for everything that exists. It implies no deity or magic about it it is inanimate, unthinking and abstract. Natural forces are part of mother nature. I have not said anything is a self regulating system, in fact I have specifically stated the opposite. The infinite monkey theorem predicts that at some point a specific pattern will be achieved. It does not predict that that pattern once achieved will persist. Once it has been achieved and passed it is gone until infinity throws it up again in some random infinite place. This where natural selection is different, once the pattern has been achieved through random events then the pattern will persist as it survives through ever more random events. |
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Post by Bentley on Jul 10, 2024 15:27:53 GMT
With infinite universes and infinite numbers of random events , highly complex patterns can occur. Hence the infinite monkey theorem . All you need are two factors . Infinite and random . Belief in Mother Nature , natural forces , self regulated systems …is just Pantheism or deism . No better than believing in God, wood nymphs or tooth fairies . Mother Nature is an overarching name for everything that exists. It implies no deity or magic about it it is inanimate, unthinking and abstract. Natural forces are part of mother nature. I have not said anything is a self regulating system, in fact I have specifically stated the opposite. The infinite monkey theorem predicts that at some point a specific pattern will be achieved. It does not predict that that pattern once achieved will persist. Once it has been achieved and passed it is gone until infinity throws it up again in some random infinite place. This where natural selection is different, once the pattern has been achieved through random events then the pattern will persist as it survives through ever more random events. “Mother Nature is an overarching name for everything that exists. It implies no deity or magic “ ….then why use the phrase as if it is then deny it when challenged. The infinite monkey theorem suggests infinitely complex patterns occur with infinite numbers of events . It suggest that’s ONE of those patterns would produce all the texts crested by man including the works of Shakespeare . You obviously didn’t get the implications . Its like saying Schrödinger's cat paradox only applies to boxes and cats . |
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Post by sandypine on Jul 10, 2024 15:43:26 GMT
Mother Nature is an overarching name for everything that exists. It implies no deity or magic about it it is inanimate, unthinking and abstract. Natural forces are part of mother nature. I have not said anything is a self regulating system, in fact I have specifically stated the opposite. The infinite monkey theorem predicts that at some point a specific pattern will be achieved. It does not predict that that pattern once achieved will persist. Once it has been achieved and passed it is gone until infinity throws it up again in some random infinite place. This where natural selection is different, once the pattern has been achieved through random events then the pattern will persist as it survives through ever more random events. “Mother Nature is an overarching name for everything that exists. It implies no deity or magic “ ….then why use the phrase as if it is then deny it when challenged. The infinite monkey theorem suggests infinitely complex patterns occur with infinite numbers of events . It suggest that’s ONE of those patterns would produce all the texts crested by man including the works of Shakespeare . You obviously didn’t get the implications . Its like saying Schrödinger's cat paradox only applies to boxes and cats . Mother Nature is a nice friendly phrase to sum up all that there is. I merely latched on to your first use of it and it obviously means different things to different people. Oh I get the implications but then we are back to a self replicating pattern that irrespective of how many chances it has taken to exist now does exist in the face of further random events and persists. I am not clear now upon which basis we are arguing. Random does not work any more overall because the pattern relies on random to self perpetuate to counter random events. Once again language fails to allow that 'relies' and 'self perpetuate to counter' should imply no conscious will of any sort, they are what has arisen through the random events you describe. |
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Post by Bentley on Jul 10, 2024 16:21:05 GMT
“Mother Nature is an overarching name for everything that exists. It implies no deity or magic “ ….then why use the phrase as if it is then deny it when challenged. The infinite monkey theorem suggests infinitely complex patterns occur with infinite numbers of events . It suggest that’s ONE of those patterns would produce all the texts crested by man including the works of Shakespeare . You obviously didn’t get the implications . Its like saying Schrödinger's cat paradox only applies to boxes and cats . Mother Nature is a nice friendly phrase to sum up all that there is. I merely latched on to your first use of it and it obviously means different things to different people. Oh I get the implications but then we are back to a self replicating pattern that irrespective of how many chances it has taken to exist now does exist in the face of further random events and persists. I am not clear now upon which basis we are arguing. Random does not work any more overall because the pattern relies on random to self perpetuate to counter random events. Once again language fails to allow that 'relies' and 'self perpetuate to counter' should imply no conscious will of any sort, they are what has arisen through the random events you describe. Ok so the phrase Mother Nature is essentially meaningless. Much like ‘ natural forces ‘ , ‘ systems ‘ and ‘ designs ‘. Random works when there is unlimited random events in an unlimited number of universes ie infinite. Patterns emerge that we see as reality ( we being a product of random events ourselves ). |
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Post by sandypine on Jul 10, 2024 18:37:56 GMT
Mother Nature is a nice friendly phrase to sum up all that there is. I merely latched on to your first use of it and it obviously means different things to different people. Oh I get the implications but then we are back to a self replicating pattern that irrespective of how many chances it has taken to exist now does exist in the face of further random events and persists. I am not clear now upon which basis we are arguing. Random does not work any more overall because the pattern relies on random to self perpetuate to counter random events. Once again language fails to allow that 'relies' and 'self perpetuate to counter' should imply no conscious will of any sort, they are what has arisen through the random events you describe. Ok so the phrase Mother Nature is essentially meaningless. Much like ‘ natural forces ‘ , ‘ systems ‘ and ‘ designs ‘. Random works when there is unlimited random events in an unlimited number of universes ie infinite. Patterns emerge that we see as reality ( we being a product of random events ourselves ). Design is by no means meaningless, and we can argue all day on the others. We cannot assume unlimited random events nor in an unlimited number of universes, there may be there may not be. All we can work on is what we observe, consider and deduce from our knowledge. That results in, so far, patterns emerging that can persist through replication and random modification. Believing otherwise is religion and considering otherwise is possible is theorising. Barring major upsetting random ELEs then our general pattern seems likely to persist for some time, there may be serious hiccups but then that seems like par for the course. |
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